P1000 Clutches burnt up

[Stauvo]

At this point I would take that "alleged" statement with a few large grains of salt. It "may" be a wear item but of the many Hondas (20+) I have owned none ever needed a clutch replaced outside of a heavily modified ATC 250R. I had a TRX300 that pulled a 42' spray unit with a 150 gal tank across fields, needles to say that load (with spray tank full) exceeded what the P1K is rated for (2000 lbs.) on an air cooled 300cc single cylinder engine. I covered over 40,000 acres with that machine in 3 years and though it struggled it NEVER failed. That first hand experience won me over forever on durability, no way we expected that machine to last more than one year.

But to your question the clutch assembly is part # 22500-HL4-003 and at RMATV it sells for $303.33 per unit and it takes TWO so $607 for that plus gaskets etc. MSRP is $379.16 each. Don't drop / break the Primary Driven Gear (81T) Part [HASHTAG]# 131179045640[/HASHTAG] the clutches attach to is $512 MSRP.

Good morning Jackal,
Yes the old TRX 300 2wheel drive. My brother in-law used his the same way on his dairy farm. He finally snapped the rear axle between the carrier and hub. So he just welded it back on. Never quite as true but it worked Lol!

 

[Admin]

 

[McPioneer]

At this point I would take that "alleged" statement with a few large grains of salt. It "may" be a wear item but of the many Hondas (20+) I have owned none ever needed a clutch replaced outside of a heavily modified ATC 250R. I had a TRX300 that pulled a 42' spray unit with a 150 gal tank across fields, needles to say that load (with spray tank full) exceeded what the P1K is rated for (2000 lbs.) on an air cooled 300cc single cylinder engine. I covered over 40,000 acres with that machine in 3 years and though it struggled it NEVER failed. That first hand experience won me over forever on durability, no way we expected that machine to last more than one year.

But to your question the clutch assembly is part # 22500-HL4-003 and at RMATV it sells for $303.33 per unit and it takes TWO so $607 for that plus gaskets etc. MSRP is $379.16 each. Don't drop / break the Primary Driven Gear (81T) Part [HASHTAG]# 131179045640[/HASHTAG] the clutches attach to is $512 MSRP.

Do you know how many hours it would be expected that a shop would take to complete the replacement? I think your probably right on it being durable given Hondas past record but everything has a life expectancy. Would be good to know what Honda puts that at for average riding. I know the life of the clutch will change drastically with how the machine is used.

My reason I ask is because what if your clutch fails not after a year but year two or three and you never purchased the extended warranty. If Honda says that the clutch should last X amount of miles and you are say not even at the half way mark you would still have a legal standing for Honda to replace the clutch. In my line of work we go after manufacturers all the time for premature failures and are successful even when products are out of warranty. If a part failed prematurely then the manufacturer is still legally responsible regardless of warranty. This is of course provided error on the part of the operator is not the cause of the failure.

 

[JACKAL]

Do you know how many hours it would be expected that a shop would take to complete the replacement? I think your probably right on it being durable given Hondas past record but everything has a life expectancy. Would be good to know what Honda puts that at for average riding. I know the life of the clutch will change drastically with how the machine is used.

My reason I ask is because what if your clutch fails not after a year but year two or three and you never purchased the extended warranty. If Honda says that the clutch should last X amount of miles and you are say not even at the half way mark you would still have a legal standing for Honda to replace the clutch. In my line of work we go after manufacturers all the time for premature failures and are successful even when products are out of warranty. If a part failed prematurely then the manufacturer is still legally responsible regardless of warranty. This is of course provided error on the part of the operator is not the cause of the failure.

It is hard to say, I can ask when I pick mine up how much Honda "allows" for labor hours but at $80 hour it will add up quick. It all depends on if the motor had to be pulled or if it can be serviced in frame by just removing the engine side casing, I do not know as I haven't studied it that close, but I could see it going anywhere from 3 hours to 15 hours (& this may be way short) labor depending on what has to be done to get to the clutch pack. The old ATC's could be replaced trackside in under 15 minutes if you had everything in the basket assembled ready to go. Ah the good ole days


To speak to the other part of your question regardless of miles if your machine is out of the warranty period factory or extended it is out of warranty, period. The warranty is for a period of time not miles. There would be no other recourse.

 

[McPioneer]

It is hard to say, I can ask when I pick mine up how much Honda "allows" for labor hours but at $80 hour it will add up quick. It all depends on if the motor had to be pulled or if it can be serviced in frame by just removing the engine side casing, I do not know as I haven't studied it that close, but I could see it going anywhere from 3 hours to 15 hours (& this may be way short) labor depending on what has to be done to get to the clutch pack. The old ATC's could be replaced trackside in under 15 minutes if you had everything in the basket assembled ready to go. Ah the good ole days

I should of said in my last post- thank you for taking the time to look into it and replying to that one and this one.

 

[educ8tedguess]

Clutch update: the dealer was able to replicate the issue but Honda only authorized a reset (sounds like what @JACKAL tried). They said its fixed as it is "shifting nice and smooth now". Hope it lasts.

 

[JACKAL]

Clutch update: the dealer was able to replicate the issue but Honda only authorized a reset (sounds like what @JACKAL tried). They said its fixed as it is "shifting nice and smooth now". Hope it lasts.

I could see where performing the clutch initialization learning procedure may help on the units that were having electrical grounding issues, but would only be effective as long as there is no further connectivity issues.

 

[McPioneer]

It is hard to say, I can ask when I pick mine up how much Honda "allows" for labor hours but at $80 hour it will add up quick. It all depends on if the motor had to be pulled or if it can be serviced in frame by just removing the engine side casing, I do not know as I haven't studied it that close, but I could see it going anywhere from 3 hours to 15 hours (& this may be way short) labor depending on what has to be done to get to the clutch pack. The old ATC's could be replaced trackside in under 15 minutes if you had everything in the basket assembled ready to go. Ah the good ole days


To speak to the other part of your question regardless of miles if your machine is out of the warranty period factory or extended it is out of warranty, period. The warranty is for a period of time not miles. There would be no other recourse.

I guess I missed that bottom paragraph. There is a life expectancy on parts and if they fail prematurely and it less that reasonably expected a court will be in favour of the consumer. I do not have personal experience with motorized vehicles but the rules should still apply. Example; in my direct experience I have dealt with appliances and other household devices that failed a year or two after warranty and we have been successful in having the manufacturer repair and also pay for the resultant damages.

I had a lady who's three year old dishwasher pump failed. Flooded her house and caused a lot of damage. She called the manufacturer who told her that as she never took out the extended warranty that they could do nothing for her. Once we were involved we sent a letter to the manufacturer placing them on notice as they were liable for the damages as a pump should not have failed just before the appliance was three years old. They refused at first but once we informed that we would start court proceedings they paid up. We also use forensic testing companies to confirm the failures in cases where user error is being blamed by the manufacturer.

I have also been successful with builders years after they have competed construction with no warranty. You just have to be reasonable and think about the issue. Forget about one year warranties, a judge is always going to side with the consumer and consider what is reasonable. This should be no different with any other product.

Could you imagine if a side X side manufacturer went to court and said "yes one of our major components should only last 2 or 3 years."

Some people don't believe in how effective the pen can be.

 

[JACKAL]

I guess I missed that bottom paragraph. There is a life expectancy on parts and if they fail prematurely and it less that reasonably expected a court will be in favour of the consumer. I do not have personal experience with motorized vehicles but the rules should still apply. Example; in my direct experience I have dealt with appliances and other household devices that failed a year or two after warranty and we have been successful in having the manufacturer repair and also pay for the resultant damages.

I had a lady who's three year old dishwasher pump failed. Flooded her house and caused a lot of damage. She called the manufacturer who told her that as she never took out the extended warranty that they could do nothing for her. Once we were involved we sent a letter to the manufacturer placing them on notice as they were liable for the damages as a pump should not have failed just before the appliance was three years old. They refused at first but once we informed that we would start court proceedings they paid up. We also use forensic testing companies to confirm the failures in cases where user error is being blamed by the manufacturer.

I have also been successful with builders years after they have competed construction with no warranty. You just have to be reasonable and think about the issue. Forget about one year warranties, a judge is always going to side with the consumer and consider what is reasonable. This should be no different with any other product.

Could you imagine if a side X side manufacturer went to court and said "yes one of our major components should only last 2 or 3 years."

Some people don't believe in how effective the pen can be.

That may work in Canada, people try that stuff where I'm from something maybe happens to them. Bad luck, accident prone etc. things no ink pen can fix. Those that miss their court dates don't usually win.

 

[PioneerPete]

I guess I missed that bottom paragraph. There is a life expectancy on parts and if they fail prematurely and it less that reasonably expected a court will be in favour of the consumer. I do not have personal experience with motorized vehicles but the rules should still apply. Example; in my direct experience I have dealt with appliances and other household devices that failed a year or two after warranty and we have been successful in having the manufacturer repair and also pay for the resultant damages.

I had a lady who's three year old dishwasher pump failed. Flooded her house and caused a lot of damage. She called the manufacturer who told her that as she never took out the extended warranty that they could do nothing for her. Once we were involved we sent a letter to the manufacturer placing them on notice as they were liable for the damages as a pump should not have failed just before the appliance was three years old. They refused at first but once we informed that we would start court proceedings they paid up. We also use forensic testing companies to confirm the failures in cases where user error is being blamed by the manufacturer.

I have also been successful with builders years after they have competed construction with no warranty. You just have to be reasonable and think about the issue. Forget about one year warranties, a judge is always going to side with the consumer and consider what is reasonable. This should be no different with any other product.

Could you imagine if a side X side manufacturer went to court and said "yes one of our major components should only last 2 or 3 years."

Some people don't believe in how effective the pen can be.

in my past experience as a design engineer, parts that are considered "wear parts" would be relatively easy to maintain (i.e. replace) by design. design for maintainability is a big part of the modern process and I'm sure that is not lost on the Honda engineers. I would be shocked if the motor (or any other major component) had to be pulled for maintenance of a "wear part". just my 2 cents.

 

[McPioneer]

That may work in Canada, people try that stuff where I'm from something maybe happens to them. Bad luck, accident prone etc. things no ink pen can fix. Those that miss their court dates don't usually win.

Yes different laws so different rules apply for you guys I guess. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with consumer law in the US.

 

[Jbird]

Getting close to pulling the trigger on a P1000-3. Got to admit this situation is giving me pause. Don't want to sign on to a $600-800 "normal wear" item. May have to look elsewhere if Honda doesn't take the right position on this.

 

[JACKAL]

Getting close to pulling the trigger on a P1000-3. Got to admit this situation is giving me pause. Don't want to sign on to a $600-800 "normal wear" item. May have to look elsewhere if Honda doesn't take the right position on this.

You are basing you concerns off of one persons opinion. Not Hondas Corporate Policy, if you have concerns about it I would call them and get an answer straight from the source, and I don't mean some dealer either "some" of them are liable to say almost anything, some of it accurate some of it not.

 

[Buckrocker]

You are basing you concerns off of one persons opinion. Not Hondas Corporate Policy, if you have concerns about it I would call them and get an answer straight from the source, and I don't mean some dealer either "some" of them are liable to say almost anything, some of it accurate some of it not.

Amen brother!

 

[ohanacreek]

I think anything more complicated than a tree branch may be to much for some people, there was one pure IDIOT (not on this forum) who decided that ATF fluid would make great motor oil because it was a wet clutch...

I'm sure Honda, you know, the engineers who design these things for a living. Know a bit more than he did about how they go together, they did after all design it.

Maybe changing viscosities and using transmission fluid is a BAD idea. Why not just use what's specified in the owners manual, you didn't design it you don't know how it all works together. If you do that and keep a record of it by buying it at a REPUTABLE dealer, and changing it yourself, what's Honda going to have to say when you have something that would be covered under warranty?

Somethings I'll change and add, but I'm not mucking around with things I don't understand or could only pretend to understand. Especially the expensive ones like motor and trans. I'm sure I could add a turbo or change the exhaust but, why? I mean if the manual has 3w-52(I know it's not a real weight it's to make a point) just use that. Why assume that 10w-40 will work because that's what your 1990 Kubota tractor and 1972 F100 use? Or that's what the stupid stealership uses because they can make an extra $20 per oil change.

I'm on a soapbox because there's a lot of hearsay and there's been a lot of things said with little (not no, there is evidence that something is happening to a couple of units) proof at all to back it up. I've asked several times about the supposed alternate part number for the replacement clutches but have yet to get a part number.

It just doesn't seem that a manufacturer would spend millions to put a new machine through rigorous testing (you know they gave it to the guy who can tear up anything and let him drive it) before releasing it to the public and not encounter this it as often as people would lead you to think. Especially one that who's "brand" is reliability. Example:TRX300, I've said it before if a cockroach can figure out how to get gas in it(and get good gas after we're all gone) they will be riding those while eating twinkies and leftover McDonald's hamburgers.

 

[ohanacreek]

Second. Post.

Honda seems to be fixing the issues that pop up. People are giving dealers credit, do you really think a dealer would be Honda to scavenge parts off a new machine? No they would rather sell that machine and have you wait on parts.

Could swap to Polaris, I read those forums before I bought my 700-4, it was post after post after post of Polaris NOT warranting known issues or giving an owner the run around for months on end.

 

[ohanacreek]

Third and final post.

Honda is a capitalist company, out for your money to pad their pockets. That's the way of at least part of the world.

Is there an issue? Yep.
What is the issue? No one knows.

Am I going to buy a 1000? Probably may wait till a 2017 comes out probably some fun upgrades to the flagship of the Pioneer lineup, maybe I can get a Silver in 2017?
How many people have a 1000?
How many people have an issue?
Wonder what that ratio really looks like?

 

[PioneerPete]

I wonder too... I wonder why Honda doesn't just come out and say what is happening to the clutches? A little transparency would go a long way with most reasonable folks.

 

[ohanacreek]

I wonder too... I wonder why Honda doesn't just come out and say what is happening to the clutches? A little transparency would go a long way with most reasonable folks.

Well I'm sure it's difficult to get a baseline, with all the different mods, tires, riding styles, oils, accessories drawing juice, exhausts, air filters....ect...

 

[PioneerPete]

Well I'm sure it's difficult to get a baseline, with all the different mods, tires, riding styles, oils, accessories drawing juice, exhausts, air filters....ect...

yeah, I agree... it just seems like all the speculation is bad for the brand and definitely bad for p1k sales. a few well crafted talking points from corporate could go a long way toward putting reasonable folks minds at ease.

 

[dezs1775]

All the people with clutch issues. Im in florida, sugar sand and mud.No problems out of mine. I use low in sugar sand and mud, and it just goes. No issues. I drive easy and hard. Plan my line. Up hill low gear. I still think it is a factory build issue.