P1000 Transmission Rattle

[P1K5Dave]

The 2022 model is going to sound different even more so than the 2021 and older.

Honda removed the "sprung" drive gear for the clutch and used the solid one out of the Talon. If you lay under the 2022 Pioneer while it's running you'll almost swear it's rod knock.

That's interesting. I have heard that the 22s were quieter and smoother-shifting... (?)

 

[Admin]

 

[HondaTech]

Wow, that is crazy. i wonder what the logic is behind that move?

My guess is they realized it wasn't needed after the Talon engine was produced. It also eases clutch replacement, since the entire rear of the engine doesn't need to be removed now to replaced the clutch pack. I still recommend it though especially if the clutch has been destroyed.

 

[Smitty335]

My guess is they realized it wasn't needed after the Talon engine was produced. It also eases clutch replacement, since the entire rear of the engine doesn't need to be removed now to replaced the clutch pack. I still recommend it though especially if the clutch has been destroyed.

Thanks buddy, if I ever have a serious issue, I'll wait for your answer.

 

[P1K5Dave]

My guess is they realized it wasn't needed after the Talon engine was produced. It also eases clutch replacement, since the entire rear of the engine doesn't need to be removed now to replaced the clutch pack. I still recommend it though especially if the clutch has been destroyed.

That's a whole 'nother bag of questions for me. I didn't know the motors and clutch setup were all that different. I figured they were both adaptations of the Africa Twin with different intake, tuning, etc.

 

[mlynch001]

My guess is they realized it wasn't needed after the Talon engine was produced. It also eases clutch replacement, since the entire rear of the engine doesn't need to be removed now to replaced the clutch pack. I still recommend it though especially if the clutch has been destroyed.

Spring loaded primary gears are used in many HONDA engines. It is a fairly typical feature that HONDA employs to remove backlash from the primary in a variety of engine configurations. Just looking at the parts diagrams, the older Africa Twins use that split spring loaded primary and the 2020 and up models use that solid gear. So i suppose they felt that any theoretical advantage was outweighed by the cost savings and easier repairs?

 

[russknight]

My guess is they realized it wasn't needed after the Talon engine was produced. It also eases clutch replacement, since the entire rear of the engine doesn't need to be removed now to replaced the clutch pack. I still recommend it though especially if the clutch has been destroyed.

Are the Talon and Pioneer gears interchangeable? I really would like a higher 6th gear.

 

[mlynch001]

Are the Talon and Pioneer gears interchangeable? I really would like a higher 6th gear.

The higher 6th gear is a result of a change in the 6th gear in the main transmission. The Primary gear ratio on both the TALON and PIONEER are the same @ 1.884 to 1. Both use an 81 tooth Primary Driven gear and a 43 tooth Primary Drive gear. The spring loaded split gear was not used on the TALON.

 

[Blackedout12v]

Mine will go away when above 3k rpm. It also does it worse after everything heats up and I'm riding for a while

Mine will go away when above 3k rpm. It also does it worse after everything heats up and I'm riding for a while.

Louder rattle after warm, and when lugging low rpms. Mine was the sub trans. Thicker oil in sub trans helped a lot.

 

[P1K5Dave]

Thicker oil in sub trans helped a lot.

How much thicker did you go? We've had guys on here try going to gear oil, and it's too heavy. It'll cause difficulty engaging a gear, especially when its cold out.

Most report good results using an engine oil with moly additives.

(Note for new owners: moly should NEVER be run in your motor/DCT because of your wet clutches.)

 

[Blackedout12v]

How much thicker did you go? We've had guys on here try going to gear oil, and it's too heavy. It'll cause difficulty engaging a gear, especially when its cold out.

Most report good results using an engine oil with moly additives.

(Note for new owners: moly should NEVER be run in your motor/DCT because of your wet clutches.)

Valvoline vr1 20w-50 high zinc with Schaeffer's moly additive. no real cold weather issues, Ohio weather, I've always had some intermittent issues with going into low. Clutch relearn was the biggest improvement shifting into low. Next sub oil change I will put Schaeffer's 5w-50 with some E.P moly additive. I have a hard time believing the same oil for the engine provides the optimal protection for what amounts to a gear on gear transfer case (sub trans).

 

[russknight]

This what I use.

Heavy ShockProof®

Film thickness greater than an SAE 75W250, yet low fluid friction like 75W90

www.redlineoil.com

 

[Blackedout12v]

This what I use.

Heavy ShockProof®

Film thickness greater than an SAE 75W250, yet low fluid friction like 75W90

www.redlineoil.com

Does it quiet down the sub trans? Assuming yours makes noise like mine when lugging in low rpm

 

[russknight]

Does it quiet down the sub trans? Assuming yours makes noise like mine when lugging in low rpm

I think it helped some.

 

[ODAMO]

The 2022 model is going to sound different even more so than the 2021 and older.

Honda removed the "sprung" drive gear for the clutch and used the solid one out of the Talon. If you lay under the 2022 Pioneer while it's running you'll almost swear it's rod knock.

I see that both the high and low driven gears in the sub are "sprung. Is this in place of the sprung trans gear or have they always been there? Also is the presence of the springs the reason for people using thicker oil to try and dampen them a bit.

 

[russknight]

Going to start the clutch replacement job this week. What's the deal with "priming" or whatever you call the sprung gear?

 

[HondaTech]

Going to start the clutch replacement job this week. What's the deal with "priming" or whatever you call the sprung gear?

The drive gear for the clutch is dampened by 3 springs. It's a thinner gear on top of a thicker gear that must have spring tension on them when lined up. I'm not sure why seeing as how the Talon and 2022 P1K have a solid gear instead.

When the clutch assembly is pulled out, the two gears spring away from each other and must be lined back up and tensioned against one another while pushing the clutch assembly back into place.

 

[russknight]

Are you referring to the primary driven gear between the clutch packs? What is other gear called? Is that what the 6mm bolt is used for? I'm not a dumbass, (usually 🤣), but I'm a bit confused.

Clutch Assembly

 

[ODAMO]

The drive gear for the clutch is dampened by 3 springs. It's a thinner gear on top of a thicker gear that must have spring tension on them when lined up. I'm not sure why seeing as how the Talon and 2022 P1K have a solid gear instead.

When the clutch assembly is pulled out, the two gears spring away from each other and must be lined back up and tensioned against one another while pushing the clutch assembly back into place.

A gear setup like this is usually considered an anti backlash gear. I wonder if Honda thought it would quiet the 270* crank caused gear rattle. And then just switched to a stronger and less complicated setup.

 

[Russ989]

Does it quiet down the sub trans? Assuming yours makes noise like mine when lugging in low rpm

I use 30% Lucas in mine and it’s quiet compared to just 10w30 Honda oil.

 

[jzimbo12]

I have the same issue. 2022 1000-5. Sounds like marbles in a tin can when accelerating or under load. Dealer said it is normal, but like Russ989 said, I got a tip to put 4oz of Lucas oil in the sub trans and it seems to have helped a lot. I'm in Northern NY and hope it doesn't affect sub zero degree operation in January.