P1000 Internal Gear Reduction not saving clutches

[Boomboom907]

Do you guys remember the post I made a while back during hunting season? I got shunned by many in this group (Honda lovers I'd guess), with many saying that it wasn't the machine, it was the operator. Like I eluded too in the post last summer, I don't care what brand it is, so long as it can get me out of the woods. I am starting to notice slipping in 3rd. I am going to bring it into the shop, and see if they will warranty it. If not, I will be on the phone with Honda......again.

Hey man, was your post something along the lines of rethinking my hunting rig?

I made a similar post. Everyone was up my ass, literally I was insulted and someone even attacked me for my avatar being what it is. I haven't been a part of this forum since. a certain member on this forum who I will not name, said my problem was invalid because my tires are big. I'm not driving it right. The tires are too heavy. You can't stop midway through a swamp because that's operator error. I had to have the mods delete the thread because of the bullying.

The problem is when my tires get bound in mud it doesn't matter how hard you punch it, it won't turn the tires. So when I stop to glass when I'm hunting in a swamp, even though I'm NOT stuck I have to winch out..... That's a problem. (our swamps are muskeg... No trees just bushes)

I'm glad the fanboys are coming to grips. If they don't this will never be fixed. I didn't pay 22k for a machine that "wasn't designed for mud" I paid that because I thought this was the machine that would take it all. Turns out my Polaris 570 crew is better in the swamps than my 1000 with more than double the hp.

I'm sold on the ATVs, but this is my last Utv from Honda. I thought i may try and keep the Honda. Buy lower gears so I can use it in the swamp. After reading this post, I've put my rig up for sale. I can't spend another 800-2800 dollars to make it just work. I've never had a problem with the ATV. 8k miles and basic maintenance.

Every single Utv we have tried has had its strengths and weaknesses. This machines strengths just doesn't line up with what I need in the strengths Department. It's a smooth ride and has gobs of power on trails, but it's a gutless pig in the mud.

I may have gotten a lemon, Idk. But it's been in the shop for more than 4 months since I've owned it.

 

[Admin]

 

[Delton]

I can't count how many times I've thought if only this thing had a torque converter or a single clutch basket and centrifugal clutch. It would be the absolute perfect UTV. I'd keep mine forever. So close to perfection, and yet so far.

 

[wilson111]

I agree with the torque converter! Why would Honda choose the DCT over the torque converter? What are supposed to be the benefits?

 

[walexa07]

I agree with the torque converter! Why would Honda choose the DCT over the torque converter? What are supposed to be the benefits?

I'm no transmission guru, but I believe they went with the DCT for the performance and compactness. It can shift so quick and they can get 6 gears in a compact unit. Again, not a guru, but those are my thoughts.

Waylan

 

[Ridem32]

Any clutch including the DCT is direct drive. Meaning locked in 1 to 1. A torque converter always slips never a 1 to 1. But for the past 20 years are so they came out with a lock up torque converter 1 to 1. When the torque converter goes into lock up you can see the rpms drop around 300. Most all cars & trucks have the lock up unit. I don't think the Honda pioneer has a lock up TQ in it. Meaning it always slips. If you have a automatic automobile just touch your brake petal while holding a constant speed and you will see the rpms go up then back down. The lock up TQ really saved gas and no more TQ slipping


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[Jakey]

I bought a 16 made in early 2016 used with 27 miles on it. I am scared sh!tless to use it now. Ive owned a Honda Rubicon for 10 years with never a hiccup. HONDA I hope you are listening, because this will DESTROY your sxs AND atv lines. I really wish I had bought a Can Am defender at this point, and I've yet to even use my machine yet.
Doesn't the new Rubicon have the dct transmission also? Any failures or problems with those?

 

[Jediwrathchild]

I bought a 16 made in early 2016 used with 27 miles on it. I am scared sh!tless to use it now. Ive owned a Honda Rubicon for 10 years with never a hiccup. HONDA I hope you are listening, because this will DESTROY your sxs AND atv lines. I really wish I had bought a Can Am defender at this point, and I've yet to even use my machine yet.
Doesn't the new Rubicon have the dct transmission also? Any failures or problems with those?

Remember, the Pioneer owners on here are a very very small percentage of total users out there. So it will seem like every machine is falling apart. You paid for it, go drive the damn thing.

 

[walexa07]

Remember, the Pioneer owners on here are a very very small percentage of total users out there. So it will seem like every machine is falling apart. You paid for it, go drive the damn thing.

I agree completely. It's just like Cumminspusher said - his first one got 1600 trouble free miles on it before it ingested water and insurance replaced it. So it is interesting how the same person can have no problems out of one unit and need to replace the clutches 2 or more times on another unit - sounds like it is the machine. I've only got about 600 miles on mine, but no issues so far at all with the clutches, and I drive it like I want. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, as I believe there is - but I don't think it affects every machine or even the majority of machines.

And to Ridem32 - you have the lock-up torque converter described correctly for an automobile, but the Honda DCT is not slipping all the time. It only slips starting off and going into each gear. The rest of the time it is locked.

Waylan

 

[Ridem32]

I agree completely. It's just like Cumminspusher said - his first one got 1600 trouble free miles on it before it ingested water and insurance replaced it. So it is interesting how the same person can have no problems out of one unit and need to replace the clutches 2 or more times on another unit - sounds like it is the machine. I've only got about 600 miles on mine, but no issues so far at all with the clutches, and I drive it like I want. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, as I believe there is - but I don't think it affects every machine or even the majority of machines.

And to Ridem32 - you have the lock-up torque converter described correctly for an automobile, but the Honda DCT is not slipping all the time. It only slips starting off and going into each gear. The rest of the time it is locked.

Waylan

Go back and read my post. I said any clutch including the DCT is 1 to 1. No slipping. Read before you post.


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[Ridem32]

Also we have the same birthday


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[PioneerPete]

I got into a mud hole the other day and couldn't go forward anymore bc the Honda wouldn't climb up the hill to get out... when I put it in reverse, it just sat there and modulated the clutches... never engaged, and never turned a tire. I could have easily burned my clutches up right then and there, but I chose not to. The Teryx that was right behind me backed out with no problems.
the fact that jackal seems compelled to trade his 2016 for a 2017 to fix the clutch issue tells me that there is a design flaw with the 16s and there is no "fix" coming from honda. sucks that we spent all this money on a honda side by side that is no more reliable than a Polaris.
yes, @CumminsPusher it is a farm machine, and probably not very good for that either.
sorry yall, I just call em like I see em.

 

[CumminsPusher]

I got into a mud hole the other day and couldn't go forward anymore bc the Honda wouldn't climb up the hill to get out... when I put it in reverse, it just sat there and modulated the clutches... never engaged, and never turned a tire. I could have easily burned my clutches up right then and there, but I chose not to. The Teryx that was right behind me backed out with no problems.
the fact that jackal seems compelled to trade his 2016 for a 2017 to fix the clutch issue tells me that there is a design flaw with the 16s and there is no "fix" coming from honda. sucks that we spent all this money on a honda side by side that is no more reliable than a Polaris.
yes, @CumminsPusher it is a farm machine, and probably not very good for that either.
sorry yall, I just call em like I see em.

If it were a farm rig slow speed driving wouldn't be "abuse" right? That's all I got

 

[tundraman]

After this thread now you got me worrying about my 10 speed in my new F150.

 

[Crow_Hunter]

I bet that they decided to use the DCT because they are using it in the Africa Twin and the CB750 and from what I have read have very little problems with it and everyone loves it.

That plus the fact it was "new and innovative" probably influenced them as well. I am not sure they did enough testing in the outset for the much heavier weight and ground resistance (like mud, snow, muskeg) versus the motorcycles. You don't read anything on their forums about clutch chatter/shudder (most people seem to really like them). I am sure they did lots of testing but I don't think they tested enough variations in production like Most Material Condition/Least Material Condition (MMC/LMC). They may have tested units whose tolerance stack ups were like Joey's while other peoples are like CP's or others who have had issues. I bet they also only tested them with factory tires and not larger and heavier tires that have much higher traction which will result in less wheel slip and more clutch slipping.

If you do research on other vehicles that have DCTs and they have similar issues with shudder/chatter at low speeds to the point that some people get rid of them both wet and dry DCTs. (Ford has a terrible problem with their dry one) BMW has/had issues with their wet one. BMW did a bunch of computer changes to improve it and Ford is doing that and replacing the whole clutch in many cases.

One their automotive one Honda uses a torque convertor AND the DCT to prevent this issue so instead of the clutch plates slipping against one another the convertor can slip.

No matter what, you are going to have clutch slippage. You can't help it. (CVTs have to slip too) You have a crankshaft that has to keep turning to keep the engine running and the tires can't instantly begin turning so something has to slip to keep from twisting the important metal parts. I know the Honda engineers know their stuff. They should have designed it to deal with the slipping and I assume that is why they went with the wet design (should wear longer in slipping) The problem is that for whatever reason some (but apparently not all) of the DCTs being used by Honda in the Pioneer are really susceptible to damage.

I wonder if we have been barking up the wrong tree and instead of it being a pressure problem it is a oil cooling problem? All of the ones that I have seen pulled are "cooked' rather than just worn through. Could it be that the problem is heat breaking down the clutch material because the oil flow isn't good enough and without the flow the heat is staying in the clutch? Maybe that is why Honda made modifications to the oil relief valves, not to improve pressure but to improve flow rate to carry the heat away from the clutches? Maybe something as "simple" as an oil cooler is all that is needed or a gear reduction to the oil pump or improved impeller blade design, etc?

I know from a past life that grinding wheel life was SIGNIFICANTLY higher with adequate cooling and if we lost pump efficiency due to swarf build up it would show up first in the grinding wheel life. A clutch is very "similar" in design to the grinder.

Sorry if this is sort of disjointed, I don't type well when trying to multitask.

 

[Ridem32]

I don't think Jackal knows for sure about the 17 model not having clutch issues. A good salesperson can sell someone anything. If Honda did find the problem and fix it and it's the same setup then the 16 model will follow. No way did Honda redesign the clutch or the trans on the 17 model. Cost would of been way to high They put all their research in the new 4 wheel drive system.


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[snuffnwhisky]

I bet that they decided to use the DCT because they are using it in the Africa Twin and the CB750 and from what I have read have very little problems with it and everyone loves it.

That plus the fact it was "new and innovative" probably influenced them as well. I am not sure they did enough testing in the outset for the much heavier weight and ground resistance (like mud, snow, muskeg) versus the motorcycles. You don't read anything on their forums about clutch chatter/shudder (most people seem to really like them). I am sure they did lots of testing but I don't think they tested enough variations in production like Most Material Condition/Least Material Condition (MMC/LMC). They may have tested units whose tolerance stack ups were like Joey's while other peoples are like CP's or others who have had issues. I bet they also only tested them with factory tires and not larger and heavier tires that have much higher traction which will result in less wheel slip and more clutch slipping.

If you do research on other vehicles that have DCTs and they have similar issues with shudder/chatter at low speeds to the point that some people get rid of them both wet and dry DCTs. (Ford has a terrible problem with their dry one) BMW has/had issues with their wet one. BMW did a bunch of computer changes to improve it and Ford is doing that and replacing the whole clutch in many cases.

One their automotive one Honda uses a torque convertor AND the DCT to prevent this issue so instead of the clutch plates slipping against one another the convertor can slip.

No matter what, you are going to have clutch slippage. You can't help it. (CVTs have to slip too) You have a crankshaft that has to keep turning to keep the engine running and the tires can't instantly begin turning so something has to slip to keep from twisting the important metal parts. I know the Honda engineers know their stuff. They should have designed it to deal with the slipping and I assume that is why they went with the wet design (should wear longer in slipping) The problem is that for whatever reason some (but apparently not all) of the DCTs being used by Honda in the Pioneer are really susceptible to damage.

I wonder if we have been barking up the wrong tree and instead of it being a pressure problem it is a oil cooling problem? All of the ones that I have seen pulled are "cooked' rather than just worn through. Could it be that the problem is heat breaking down the clutch material because the oil flow isn't good enough and without the flow the heat is staying in the clutch? Maybe that is why Honda made modifications to the oil relief valves, not to improve pressure but to improve flow rate to carry the heat away from the clutches? Maybe something as "simple" as an oil cooler is all that is needed or a gear reduction to the oil pump or improved impeller blade design, etc?

I know from a past life that grinding wheel life was SIGNIFICANTLY higher with adequate cooling and if we lost pump efficiency due to swarf build up it would show up first in the grinding wheel life. A clutch is very "similar" in design to the grinder.

Sorry if this is sort of disjointed, I don't type well when trying to multitask.

I thought I saw a while back on one of the patent post that @Hondasxs posted with a moved or added oil temp or pressure sensor by the clutch.

 

[CumminsPusher]

I thought I saw a while back on one of the patent post that @Hondasxs posted with a moved or added oil temp or pressure sensor by the clutch.

On the p1 or Twin?

 

[snuffnwhisky]

On the p1 or Twin?

Pretty sure the P1.

 

[snuffnwhisky]

Found the post:
Honda 1000 Engine Patents - 20160082834

 

[CumminsPusher]

Found the post:
Honda 1000 Engine Patents - 20160082834

I wonder if that's incorporated into any of the current models or will be in the 17.


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