P1000 Catastrophic failure

[CumminsPusher]

When a wave comes over and it's sucking air it would pull it right in theoreticallyspeaking

Absolutely but little at a time. That was the hardest we hit that day. Most of it was good speed through trails across little puddles

 

[Admin]

 

[CumminsPusher]

But what I don't understand is with the plastic cover over the intake how anything makes it in. Last weekend we rode thru a ton of rain, mud, I hit alot of puddles fast enough to spray me in the face. Spent hours getting the machine half clean pulled the hood and couldn't believe how clean it was just a little dust.

Possibly a little more speed. I think that's the problem. If I had my machine I'd test by putting a drain in (which I will anyways) and seeing how deep and at what speed. I wanted to test and report back but I won't get my machine back till mid possibly late summer depending on part availability but we all know how that is. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think so. I've read a lot and talked with a few people and there are accounts of people same thing. One guy was 9 in of water at 25-30. I remember something here from awhile back where a guy was in very shallow water a creek crossing I think at a reasonable pace when it seized.

 

[KevinSC]

Possibly a little more speed. I think that's the problem. If I had my machine I'd test by putting a drain in (which I will anyways) and seeing how deep and at what speed. I wanted to test and report back but I won't get my machine back till mid possibly late summer depending on part availability but we all know how that is. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think so. I've read a lot and talked with a few people and there are accounts of people same thing. One guy was 9 in of water at 25-30. I remember something here from awhile back where a guy was in very shallow water a creek crossing I think at a reasonable pace when it seized.

Well I for one would like to see if Honda will make a design change and if they do will they update our rides before this becomes a major issue. This is a simple rerouting of the intake and you could have this solved.

 

[CumminsPusher]

Put a 90 on the down pipe going towards the cab would be just fine

 

[CumminsPusher]

I'm hoping they do because from what I believe I've learned there could be more just waiting. I strongly suggest no higher speed water crossings and to put a valve in at the point of the pic @ghost put up. I think for most it won't be a problem but it will be for others and already has been for some as Honda has warrenteed a few machines and hope they come forward with mine as well. Out of pocket on this has yet to be determined however I'll know on Thursday but it will be at least 6000 but that's only if transmission is ok and they are connected.

 

[joeymt33]

Sorry I'm late to the game fellas. Y'all have me curious enough now that I may drill a hole in the bottom of the intake for a drain.

As for my snorkel top, so far it's been good. I've not had any hesitation and I've splashed thru tons of water. I have literally ran creeks for hours splashing water. I run the snorkel backwards when water is around and the snorkel top is sloped out so when water runs off of the top, it falls past the inlet. Even if water drops got into the duct, I would think it would pass immediately. I have a CFM meter I should put on the tube and read the flow rate. It would be like taking a wet dry shop vac and sucking up water. It doesn't stay in the hose even if it was shaped into a trap.

Ok, let's say that you always drive slow and keep the rpms low. Therefore, you wouldn't have the CFM to keep the tube dry. What about all the bouncing? Steep hills? Rocking the vehicle to pop a wheelie? All those things would help get the water out right?

I could be way off on this but I'll try to check it tomorrow. I will probably drill a small drain hole and then plug it with a screw or rivet. I guess I could even use silicone too. Anyway, I'm not worried about drilling it.

I drilled a hole in my ford ecoboost intercooler. A very small 1/16 hole is what I drilled in the bottom corner. Ford has oversized the intercoolers for the f150's. Their fix was to recall them and block a large portion of the intercooler with a piece of HDPE with adhesive on it. Anyway, in the rare occasion that I was driving for hours in the rain at very low rpms, the intercooler was condensing the humidity from the air and it would pool in the bottom. So, after driving for hours I would make a pee stop and then accelerate to get back on the highway and the truck would shut off because it just ingested that water. If I had taken the recall, that wouldn't happen according to ford. I picked up the drilling a small hole trick on a ecoboost forum and it's worked great. Never had the problem again. Some people could say that I may be loosing boost but it's like a drop in the ocean. I've never noticed a drop in the boost gauge or any other ill affects. MOST importantly, when I drilled it, nothing came out. It had been dried out by the flow of intake air. We drilled my brothers during a rainy couple of days and his had about a cup of water in it.

I'll check my intake for everyone tomorrow. I could run a wire in it to check for water I guess but having a drain wouldn't be a bad thing.

I'll let y'all know.


Sent from my iPad 7G

 

[CumminsPusher]

I'm glad you're going to check! I would if I could. I'm really concerned on this one Joe. I see no other way for my rig. There are a few other accounts One was on this site I've been looking for it I remember a while back maybe someone here can remember it I'd like to get that guys full account. One thing I did notice is the foam filter upfront if that's not incorrectly or not you at all that would be detrimental. I think there are probably others that were told same thing as me. I do probably play in the water more than most but at the same time I'm not stupid especially with this rig I don't mind scratches and scrapes on it at all but I'm sure as hell not trying to just tear crap up. I've never hydro locked anything in my entire life.

 

[CumminsPusher]

Sorry I'm late to the game fellas. Y'all have me curious enough now that I may drill a hole in the bottom of the intake for a drain.

As for my snorkel top, so far it's been good. I've not had any hesitation and I've splashed thru tons of water. I have literally ran creeks for hours splashing water. I run the snorkel backwards when water is around and the snorkel top is sloped out so when water runs off of the top, it falls past the inlet. Even if water drops got into the duct, I would think it would pass immediately. I have a CFM meter I should put on the tube and read the flow rate. It would be like taking a wet dry shop vac and sucking up water. It doesn't stay in the hose even if it was shaped into a trap.

Ok, let's say that you always drive slow and keep the rpms low. Therefore, you wouldn't have the CFM to keep the tube dry. What about all the bouncing? Steep hills? Rocking the vehicle to pop a wheelie? All those things would help get the water out right?

I could be way off on this but I'll try to check it tomorrow. I will probably drill a small drain hole and then plug it with a screw or rivet. I guess I could even use silicone too. Anyway, I'm not worried about drilling it.

I drilled a hole in my ford ecoboost intercooler. A very small 1/16 hole is what I drilled in the bottom corner. Ford has oversized the intercoolers for the f150's. Their fix was to recall them and block a large portion of the intercooler with a piece of HDPE with adhesive on it. Anyway, in the rare occasion that I was driving for hours in the rain at very low rpms, the intercooler was condensing the humidity from the air and it would pool in the bottom. So, after driving for hours I would make a pee stop and then accelerate to get back on the highway and the truck would shut off because it just ingested that water. If I had taken the recall, that wouldn't happen according to ford. I picked up the drilling a small hole trick on a ecoboost forum and it's worked great. Never had the problem again. Some people could say that I may be loosing boost but it's like a drop in the ocean. I've never noticed a drop in the boost gauge or any other ill affects. MOST importantly, when I drilled it, nothing came out. It had been dried out by the flow of intake air. We drilled my brothers during a rainy couple of days and his had about a cup of water in it.

I'll check my intake for everyone tomorrow. I could run a wire in it to check for water I guess but having a drain wouldn't be a bad thing.

I'll let y'all know.


Sent from my iPad 7G

You do bring up a couple points Joe. The wheelie especially. Jumps and bumps I just don't see because of the high angle it would have the climb but even if I slight bit of water were to go through you wouldn't feel to much on some of the harder things you did because you're more or less off of the throttle afterwards and as long as it didn't kill the machine you may not feel it. But if you take the filter out you would really see that it would take a massive amount to get through because of the design of the box. A small amount would wind up at most hitting the filter and going back down. However if it starved it under throttle because it was full it would suck it all the way. Think of it this way when you have a hole in a straw nothing. No hole everything. I may be off base and like I say I wish to god I could test this before bringing it up because I hate being wrong but at the expense of that I'll take some heat if I am but if I'm not this could very well explain a few machines out there and possibly save a couple people on here as well. Different people with different setups in different places at different speeds with different conditions will for sure have different results. However I'm fairly sure this may just be my deal. At the very least I would suggest putting a drain in to people as insurance. With all the time effort and money we have in these things it seems like cheap insurance. If I'm wrong I'll eat crap if not maybe I could save even one person from the holy hell in experiencing

 

[sharp]

I'm pretty sure on my theory on water through the intake here. I believe small amounts of water come into the intake every puddle possibly small amounts. I'm not saying at all in deep water but even in shallow water. I'm sure water sits in that lower section until it fills to the point no air goes by and whoosh into motor. Especially at high r's a fuel injected 1000cc is going to create massive amounts of suction. When it fills up to the point air can't get by it becomes a straw in a cup. It's got no place to go! There is no drain anywhere. It's getting forced into the air box. If you look at the lower section of pipe probably almost 3 1/2 ft my guess from my experience is probably close to three quarts. I'm figuring Your right @ghost about that spot it would be a great place for us to install a pepcock. I've been doing some research and I'm not the only one here. I've got a feeling lots of people may have water in that lower section just waiting. There is absolutely no way that I was riding in a way that shouldn't be done in an off road sxs. I had three quarts of water in my crankcase! Watch the video there is no way the Pioneer inhaled that in this puddle no way! I've been riding for years on every type of vehicle I've never seen something not take that! My daughter on her crf110 rides that puddle. I've been through the same one 100s of times literally with never a grunt even from the Polaris's or Can-Ams. Everyone here knows my admiration for Honda please understand I'm not slamming this rig because I'll never do so it's been my favorite without question but there is a serious problem here

Three quarts of water! Dang. Just a thought but were you by any chance trailering your rig down the road in heavy rain? If so did you have it loaded differently than you normally do?

 

[CumminsPusher]

Three quarts of water! Dang. Just a thought but were you by any chance trailering your rig down the road in heavy rain? If so did you have it loaded differently than you normally do?

No not at all. It was from that one puddle that's where I started thinking. The transmission oil was pretty clear but engine wasn't. Here's what engine oil looked like after it seized. Apparently "from that one splash"
Just doesn't make sense any other way. Understand I've gone over and over it. I tried building a case against it even but there is no way that much water was inhaled by that splash. We were running through stuff all day most wasn't as bad granted on that but I was in that vehicle the whole time and it was never in my eyes swamped

 

[Dasmoeturhead]

Man that stinks. Hope you can get back to some kind of norm soon.

 

[sharp]

No not at all. It was from that one puddle that's where I started thinking. The transmission oil was pretty clear but engine wasn't. Here's what engine oil looked like after it seized. Apparently "from that one splash"View attachment 16348
Just doesn't make sense any other way. Understand I've gone over and over it. I tried building a case against it even but there is no way that much water was inhaled by that splash. We were running through stuff all day most wasn't as bad granted on that but I was in that vehicle the whole time and it was never in my eyes swamped

I confident this will get figured out. This forum is great for problem solving. Hundreds of like minded people with similar interests! But you already know that. Hang in there

 

[walexa07]

The solution in my mind isn't adding a drain, it's preventing water from ever getting in the intake. Whether that means not hitting water fast, or snorkeling of some sort. I have a hard time believing 2 or 2.5 quarts sloshed around in there for any amount of time. Hope this gets covered for you! Sorry for the misfortune!

Waylan

 

[ghost]

Seems we have some non-believers cumminsPusher, but so far your theory is the only one that holds water.

I know from my clearing my irrigation with a compressor that air and water in pipe under pressure can do some weird stuff. Just when I think the pipe is clear I get one more blast of water.

This factory snorkel with "trap" is real concern for me.

 

[GlockMeister]

View attachment 16334
Here is a picture of the system. That lower section is the one I'm talking about. This is the same one that the Honda tech and I found.

Looking at this pic why not bypass the hood intake all together and snorkel right out of the airbox straight up behind the seat?

 

[ghost]

Looking at this pic why not bypass the hood intake all together and snorkel right out of the airbox straight up behind the seat?

That would solve the water problem but there can be a lot of dust and debri floating around back there. But at least we know the filter will stop all that.

 

[joeymt33]

Looking at this pic why not bypass the hood intake all together and snorkel right out of the airbox straight up behind the seat?

Some people have done that, that is a very good option to have.

I think @Delton has that set up.


Sent from my iPad 7G

 

[Hondasxs]

I remember something here from awhile back where a guy was in very shallow water a creek crossing I think at a reasonable pace when it seized.

I remember this too but can't locate it. Anyone else remember this?
Something like he was creek riding fairly fast, been driving in it most of the day and then all of a sudden his rig shut down. Come to find out it was full of water yet he was never really in that deep water, he was only going fast.

@joeymt33
Any ideas for installing a drain. Something sealed that could be unscrewed or un-clipped to allow easy draining.
Hypothetically, if the pipe was to take on water it would be fairly large tasks to drain on the trail.

 

[JACKAL]

Is it possible there is a vent tube to the crankcase that hasn't been identified which allows water to be sucked in much like the vent line on the fuel tanks sucks in water? I was under the impression that the main crankcase vent terminated inside the air box. Even at that it too could suck in larger contaminates the main air filter would block.

This is just a bad deal all the way around. Hopefully there can be some revelation of how the engine ingested so much water.

 

[X4Dice]

I remember this too but can't locate it. Anyone else remember this?
Something like he was creek riding fairly fast, been driving in it most of the day and then all of a sudden his rig shut down. Come to find out it was full of water yet he was never really in that deep water, he was only going fast.

@joeymt33
Any ideas for installing a drain. Something sealed that could be unscrewed or un-clipped to allow easy draining.
Hypothetically, if the pipe was to take on water it would be fairly large tasks to drain on the trail.

This is what HogHunter did.
P1000 - Pioneer 1000 snorkel