P1000 Broken Bolt mount to A-Arm. 2018 Pioneer 1000-LE

[Cuoutdoors]

STATUS UPDATE

First of all, I appreciate all of the very useful, and mostly positive feedback I have received from everyone.
@dswv42 WOW!! I think if I ever need an expert witness to testify I would give you a call. I definitely will not be filing any lawsuits, and still hope to resolve this matter in the most professional manner as possible. With that said, lets all just get along on here and continue to help one another out; without bringing in opinions of people that we have never met.

So. . .needless to say, I did not hear back from the service manager at Honda Marysville yesterday. After he said he would call me right back with the price. So I decided to write the GM of Honda Marysville, and explain to him that my machine has been sitting in his building for 2 weeks, and I in that time I have received exactly 0 ZERO phone calls from anyone that works there. 10 minutes later, the Service Manager calls me back. He said that they needed to replace the entire frame, and that the price for everything with labor would be $5,800. I asked why is this not being submitted to Honda for their opinion? He told me that they have to fix the machine first, and then send the frame to Honda, and that if Honda decides it is not a manufacturing defect that he would have to eat the cost. AS soon as I dropped the Machine off (June 26) after explaining to him what happened, this same service manager had not even seen the machine yet, tells me "even though its under warranty, it might not be covered"

So I decided at this point, there is nothing more I can do over the phone to change the opinion of this service manager. I told him, fair enough, and that I would be in contact with Honda.

I then sent an email to Honda Customer Service, and was assigned a case # 11421861. I explained the situation in depth and told them that I am a little disappointed at this point. I had a special trip planned with my son that I had to cancel because I have no machine to ride. I live in a community that Honda Built! I have driven, and rode Honda my entire life. My father retired from Honda of America in Marysville. When I was a Marine The 1st thing I bought, after returning from fighting in Iraq, was a Honda Motorcycle! It is all that I looked forward to! I have owned or driven almost every Honda vehicle under the sun! This company has been good to my family & my community. That is why I continue to buy Honda. That is why I am reaching out in this message to, hopefully, contact someone that can actually help me out!!

I am yet to hear anything from Honda but going to call them shortly after this.

Again, all comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated. I am so glad I joined this forum group. I am thinking about the longer bolt/ washer/ beef up mount fabrication idea. Just scared that I would void the warranty & protection plan I bought. But at this point, what good is it anyway?? lol.

I will keep you all posted in the meantime. Once I get a better idea of the time frame or if Honda is going to cover this I am going to make a decision on picking up the machine. I'm 1/2 scared to let Honda Marysville do the work, even if Honda covers it. One of the reasons I did not go to this dealer in the 1st place before I bought the machine is because they treat everyone like this. The car dealership & motorsports are right beside one another right in Honda country. Where everyone either works at Honda of America Mfg. or knows someone that does. They are the biggest around, and know that people are going to buy vehicles there strictly out of convenience. Regardless of how they actually treat you or are willing to deal with you (which is pretty rare).

When I drove to Southern Honda in Tennessee the General Manager was one of the 1st to introduce himself to me and my son. Actually talked to us, and showed us his employees cleaning my machine and putting brand new rims & tires on it. I asked him if he would throw in the original set of rims & tires and he said "sure, no problem"!! Went out of his way to see if he had any accessories I wanted, in stock to be put on before I drove home to Ohio. This would NEVER happen at Honda Marysville. Unless, of course, you email the General Manager & actually hold him accountable for his poor sales & service staff. Anyways, I'm obviously rambling at this point and that is not doing anything to get my machine back in service! I'll keep you all posted! Thanks again.

Thank you for your service as a Marine. Sorry to hear its not going well but I'm not all that surprised. Reach out to Neohio and get some bolts and washers. Maybe he can help you connect with someone in your area. You'll find there are plenty of members on this site that would gladly help you out. Unfortunately I don't know of any in your area. Come to Wisconsin, Iowa, Missouri, Arkansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, Georgia, or Alabama and there's plenty.

 

[Admin]

 

[0860silverado]

STATUS UPDATE

First of all, I appreciate all of the very useful, and mostly positive feedback I have received from everyone.
@dswv42 WOW!! I think if I ever need an expert witness to testify I would give you a call. I definitely will not be filing any lawsuits, and still hope to resolve this matter in the most professional manner as possible. With that said, lets all just get along on here and continue to help one another out; without bringing in opinions of people that we have never met.

So. . .needless to say, I did not hear back from the service manager at Honda Marysville yesterday. After he said he would call me right back with the price. So I decided to write the GM of Honda Marysville, and explain to him that my machine has been sitting in his building for 2 weeks, and I in that time I have received exactly 0 ZERO phone calls from anyone that works there. 10 minutes later, the Service Manager calls me back. He said that they needed to replace the entire frame, and that the price for everything with labor would be $5,800. I asked why is this not being submitted to Honda for their opinion? He told me that they have to fix the machine first, and then send the frame to Honda, and that if Honda decides it is not a manufacturing defect that he would have to eat the cost. AS soon as I dropped the Machine off (June 26) after explaining to him what happened, this same service manager had not even seen the machine yet, tells me "even though its under warranty, it might not be covered"

So I decided at this point, there is nothing more I can do over the phone to change the opinion of this service manager. I told him, fair enough, and that I would be in contact with Honda.

I then sent an email to Honda Customer Service, and was assigned a case # 11421861. I explained the situation in depth and told them that I am a little disappointed at this point. I had a special trip planned with my son that I had to cancel because I have no machine to ride. I live in a community that Honda Built! I have driven, and rode Honda my entire life. My father retired from Honda of America in Marysville. When I was a Marine The 1st thing I bought, after returning from fighting in Iraq, was a Honda Motorcycle! It is all that I looked forward to! I have owned or driven almost every Honda vehicle under the sun! This company has been good to my family & my community. That is why I continue to buy Honda. That is why I am reaching out in this message to, hopefully, contact someone that can actually help me out!!

I am yet to hear anything from Honda but going to call them shortly after this.

Again, all comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated. I am so glad I joined this forum group. I am thinking about the longer bolt/ washer/ beef up mount fabrication idea. Just scared that I would void the warranty & protection plan I bought. But at this point, what good is it anyway?? lol.

I will keep you all posted in the meantime. Once I get a better idea of the time frame or if Honda is going to cover this I am going to make a decision on picking up the machine. I'm 1/2 scared to let Honda Marysville do the work, even if Honda covers it. One of the reasons I did not go to this dealer in the 1st place before I bought the machine is because they treat everyone like this. The car dealership & motorsports are right beside one another right in Honda country. Where everyone either works at Honda of America Mfg. or knows someone that does. They are the biggest around, and know that people are going to buy vehicles there strictly out of convenience. Regardless of how they actually treat you or are willing to deal with you (which is pretty rare).

When I drove to Southern Honda in Tennessee the General Manager was one of the 1st to introduce himself to me and my son. Actually talked to us, and showed us his employees cleaning my machine and putting brand new rims & tires on it. I asked him if he would throw in the original set of rims & tires and he said "sure, no problem"!! Went out of his way to see if he had any accessories I wanted, in stock to be put on before I drove home to Ohio. This would NEVER happen at Honda Marysville. Unless, of course, you email the General Manager & actually hold him accountable for his poor sales & service staff. Anyways, I'm obviously rambling at this point and that is not doing anything to get my machine back in service! I'll keep you all posted! Thanks again.

I believe that there is a law that prevents a warranty claim being denied if the modification did not directly contribute to failure. (IOW...they can't deny a transmission claim because you repaired/modified your front frame section.)

Again, all comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated. I am so glad I joined this forum group. I am thinking about the longer bolt/ washer/ beef up mount fabrication idea. Just scared that I would void the warranty & protection plan I bought. But at this point, what good is it anyway?? lol.

 

[Brett002]

Ok so I'm not an agitator... I just want the OP @jp_holy to hear my story on dealings with "Honda Corporate"...

Long story short:
Had a pioneer 500. Blew up on me on a dirt road. Carry it in as I still had factory warranty, and 4 years of extended. The dealership I carry it to denies my claim due to water intrusion. Honda calls and say that there is dirt and water in my intake. I had never had the thing over the floorboard and it blew up on a dirt road. Tough ass honda still let me get to the truck with a severe knock. So I call B.S. and call honda to be sure it's ok to get a second opinion from a different dealer. They say that's fine.

Now this is where the story gets hilarious.

I carry the parts they removed and the sxs to a different dealer. Honda then calls me over the phone then calls me a "liar" saying that the new dealer didn't find any evidence of water intrusion and that I must have "cleaned parts" in route from the one dealer to the other. That's when I said "Listen, I showed up at one at 5 and the other at 6. There is only an hour of time between the two. Hopefully there is some surveillance footage i can show my lawyer showing me leave the one and show up at the other". That immediately changed their tune.

Now I did have to come out of pocket on the rebuild. Honda goodwilled the parts.
I was really upset about that at the time untill I got ahold of the original dealer that said I had mud in the intake. They then made it right buy selling me the pioneer 1000 I have now with over 21,000 not exactly easy miles on it. I bought it with 0. I traded the 500 in on it and with the trade in and the otd on the 1000 I was satisfied that I was sticking it back to mother honda after the rebuild.

My 16' pioneer 1000 has 1 year left on the "Kawasaki" extended warranty that I bought for it. Not only do they cover other machines but it was about $800 cheaper at the time. I won't buy honda warranty on anything ever again. I'll take the factory one that they give but its not good for much obviously.

My 16' pioneer has been extremely good to me. Still on original clutches and I've had 31.5" ag tires on it for the last 8,000 miles or so. Just replaced all bushings and all bearings and were all like new. No holes were elongated and my tabs looked fine on my frame. I inspected them with a light to be sure.

 

[CID]

I would take it to a fab shop and have it fixed and beefed up and do the other side while they are at it. You normally rip the whole tab off the frame instead of the bolt hole and is pretty common if you hit something somewhat hard. A steel angle from the 2 bumper bolts the the A arm tab is a easy fix and much stronger. If you replace the front clip with OEM, you may rip it again and be in the same boat. Worse is if the hole doesn't rip out and the tab comes off.

I like this idea, any chance you have a photo to show the OP?

If Honda drops the ball on this, reinforce the tab like in my crude drawing and add the steel angle from the 2 bumper bolts which are conveniently right there and yer ready fer the Baja 1000.

 

[dswv42]

I am yet to hear anything from Honda but going to call them shortly after this.

Again, all comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated. I am so glad I joined this forum group. I am thinking about the longer bolt/ washer/ beef up mount fabrication idea. Just scared that I would void the warranty & protection plan I bought. But at this point, what good is it anyway?

Based on countless reports found online, I wouldn't count on Honda approving the warranty repairs. Besides, even if they fixed it, you would still end up with the same flawed frame design that led to the sudden unanticipated frame failure.

As suggested by another user, many people have repaired it themselves by using a number of different methods, where the most popular one seems to be welding a triangular gusset plate between the frame tab and bumper support tube bracket. Here's an example, fould elsewhere on this forum.

While the repair does seem to be effective, I'm not convinced that it fully compensates for the existing flawed design which allows excess shock loads to translate through the front upper control arm bushing into the frame tube. It can also interfere with the OEM Honda winch mount bracket installation. That being said, I'm considering a number of repair alternatives, including the use of a trapezoid shaped 1018 mild steel gusset plate installed vertically along the frame tube, which would help distribute the forces along a wider area, thus reducing the possibility of stress cracks. Basically, the gusset plate would be shaped as follows.

I'm also considering a more radical method that does fully compensate for the flawed frame design, but alignment jigs would have to be made to ensure that the steering geometry remains the same. Basically, it involves adding 1018 mild steel gusset plates and a second set of tabs to the front upper control arm mount brackets, and replacing the control arm bushing tube with two bushing tubes similar to those used on the bottom control arms. It would require a lot of custom fabrication work, but I believe the results could be outstanding. For reference, the following are pictures of the bare front frame assembly for the Honda Pioneer 1000, found elsewhere online.

When the radical modifications were completed, the front upper control arms (bushing tube ends) and frame brackets would resemble those used on the Honda Pioneer 700. The larger bushings do a much better job of dampening shock loads, and preventing them from translating into the frame.

 

[Smitty335]

Based on countless reports found online, I wouldn't count on Honda approving the warranty repairs. Besides, even if they fixed it, you would still end up with the same flawed frame design that led to the sudden unanticipated frame failure.

As suggested by another user, many people have repaired it themselves by using a number of different methods, where the most popular one seems to be welding a triangular gusset plate between the frame tab and bumper support tube bracket. Here's an example, fould elsewhere on this forum.

View attachment 211830

While the repair does seem to be effective, I'm not convinced that it fully compensates for the existing flawed design which allows excess shock loads to translate through the front upper control arm bushing into the frame tube. It can also interfere with the OEM Honda winch mount bracket installation. That being said, I'm considering a number of repair alternatives, including the use of a trapezoid shaped 1018 mild steel gusset plate installed vertically along the frame tube, which would help distribute the forces along a wider area, thus reducing the possibility of stress cracks. Basically, the gusset plate would be shaped as follows.

View attachment 211832

I'm also considering a more radical method that does fully compensate for the flawed frame design, but alignment jigs would have to be made to ensure that the steering geometry remains the same. Basically, it involves adding 1018 mild steel gusset plates and a second set of tabs to the front upper control arm mount brackets, and replacing the control arm bushing tube with two bushing tubes similar to those used on the bottom control arms. It would require a lot of custom fabrication work, but I believe the results could be outstanding. For reference, the following are pictures of the bare front frame assembly for the Honda Pioneer 1000, found elsewhere online.

View attachment 211840
View attachment 211841

Thats the half of it, see where your ground lead is clamped, that needs to be 1/4 inch there at least?

 

[Adam490]

I was talking with @snuffnwhisky about this when my driver side upper bolt kept coming loose. It's definitely a flawed design for how we ride, but most don't have the ability to fab up new bushings, cut the arms properly, cut/fab new frame tabs, etc. Hence the gusset which is within most people's reach. I'll probably come up with something before Takeover next year if I can come up with enough beer to convince some people to help me out 😂

 

[DDDonkey]

I made my own gussets and a video, nothing fancy but it works. Mine is an L bracket with a gusset welded, bolted to the bumper bolts and the stock a-arm bolt. Here is a screen shot before I finish welded it, hit it with a grinder and painted it.

 

[ToddACimer]

Based on countless reports found online, I wouldn't count on Honda approving the warranty repairs. Besides, even if they fixed it, you would still end up with the same flawed frame design that led to the sudden unanticipated frame failure.

As suggested by another user, many people have repaired it themselves by using a number of different methods, where the most popular one seems to be welding a triangular gusset plate between the frame tab and bumper support tube bracket. Here's an example, fould elsewhere on this forum.

View attachment 211830

While the repair does seem to be effective, I'm not convinced that it fully compensates for the existing flawed design which allows excess shock loads to translate through the front upper control arm bushing into the frame tube. It can also interfere with the OEM Honda winch mount bracket installation. That being said, I'm considering a number of repair alternatives, including the use of a trapezoid shaped 1018 mild steel gusset plate installed vertically along the frame tube, which would help distribute the forces along a wider area, thus reducing the possibility of stress cracks. Basically, the gusset plate would be shaped as follows.

View attachment 211832

I'm also considering a more radical method that does fully compensate for the flawed frame design, but alignment jigs would have to be made to ensure that the steering geometry remains the same. Basically, it involves adding 1018 mild steel gusset plates and a second set of tabs to the front upper control arm mount brackets, and replacing the control arm bushing tube with two bushing tubes similar to those used on the bottom control arms. It would require a lot of custom fabrication work, but I believe the results could be outstanding. For reference, the following are pictures of the bare front frame assembly for the Honda Pioneer 1000, found elsewhere online.

View attachment 211840
View attachment 211841

When the radical modifications were completed, the front upper control arms (bushing tube ends) and frame brackets would resemble those used on the Honda Pioneer 700. The larger bushings do a much better job of dampening shock loads, and preventing them from translating into the frame.

View attachment 211843

Since you used my photo without reference to the thread or the actual materials used, I wanted to provide you feedback that the upper tab was gusseted with formed 1/8 making the tab nearly twice as thick and with a formed 90 for support and adequate weld area. This is the actual upper tab gusset.

Additionally the tab gusset then had a counter bored washer added to it to load share and tab sheer with the bolt head.

In other threads concerns have been brought up that beefier frame tabs making frame tearing more likely. In this case, since my frame tabs are gusseted, and nearly 4x thicker than stock with the welded washers, I specifically switched to a m10x1.5 bolt that terminates the shank inside the upper a-arm bushing. The m10x1.5 bolt has a reduced torque vs the OEM bolt but I've eliminated most of the need for clamp load on the bushing since the tabs are stiffer and and in the event of bolt wear the bolt flange diameter engages the tab anyway. Since running this setup I've never had the nuts loosen, unlike the stock bolts. I do carry a spare bolt as I believe the smaller diameter of the coarse thread bolt is more susceptible to breaking the bolt but it's never been an issue and it would be the ideal failure point on large impact anyway.

 

[ToddACimer]

Thats the half of it, see where your ground lead is clamped, that needs to be 1/4 inch there at least?

I don't really see any need to beef up the thickness of the lower mounts. I've wrecked 5 lower a-arms on my 2 pioneers and never done much more than tweek 1 front lower mount. I think the SuperATV lower mount gusset kit is a joke.

I did add 1 triangular gusset to each front pivot on my machine.

 

[dswv42]

It's definitely a flawed design for how we ride, but most don't have the ability to fab up new bushings, cut the arms properly, cut/fab new frame tabs, etc. Hence the gusset which is within most people's reach.

Indeed, the required custom fabrication work is quite extensive, which is why I first suggested the possibility of using a trapezoid shaped 1018 mild steel gusset plate welded vertically along the frame tube. Basically, it could be welded over the existing tab and would also act to double the thickness of the tab. Alternatively, the tab could be carefully removed, and the gusset plate could be installed in it's place. However, a jig would need to be created to ensure that the hole was located in the correct position. Either way, the gusset plate could be easily fabricated from a short piece (about 6 inches) of 1018 mild steel rectangular stock. In the first instance, the curved edge of the rectangular tube stock would compensate for overlapping the existing tab, thus allowing it to reach the frame without any custom bends.

 

[Smitty335]

I don't really see any need to beef up the thickness of the lower mounts. I've wrecked 5 lower a-arms on my 2 pioneers and never done much more than tweek 1 front lower mount. I think the SuperATV lower mount gusset kit is a joke.

I did add 1 triangular gusset to each front pivot on my machine.

View attachment 211847

There you go, but I still think you need thicker walled A arm bolt plates and I would put a spacer in the spread before welding?

 

[ToddACimer]

There you go, but I still think you need thicker walled A arm bolt plates and I would put a spacer in the spread before welding?

Not on the lower. Since the the lower has the formed lower flange, it's stiffer than the upper and keep in mind it's also 2 bolts with a short span (3") vs the long span of the upper. There's no doubt @snuffnwhisky fixed this better with 4 upper a-arm tabs but that means custom upper a-arms and custom bushings. I still have yet to see a lower mount tear off so I think the gusset I added is just overkill.

 

[Smitty335]

Not on the lower. Since the the lower has the formed lower flange, it's stiffer than the upper and keep in mind it's also 2 bolts with a short span (3") vs the long span of the upper. There's no doubt @snuffnwhisky fixed this better with 4 upper a-arm tabs but that means custom upper a-arms and custom bushings. I still have yet to see a lower mount tear off so I think the gusset I added is just overkill.

I agree.

 

[Smitty335]

Not on the lower. Since the the lower has the formed lower flange, it's stiffer than the upper and keep in mind it's also 2 bolts with a short span (3") vs the long span of the upper. There's no doubt @snuffnwhisky fixed this better with 4 upper a-arm tabs but that means custom upper a-arms and custom bushings. I still have yet to see a lower mount tear off so I think the gusset I added is just overkill.

My bolt holes are egging out, thus the question about thicker a arm bolt surfaces?

 

[dswv42]

Since you used my photo without reference to the thread or the actual materials used, I wanted to provide you feedback that the upper tab was gusseted with formed 1/8 making the tab nearly twice as thick and with a formed 90 for support and adequate weld area.

I have about 500 pictures saved of the frame and associated components, and keeping track of their sources is all but impossible. My goal was to give a very simplistic overview, just to get the idea across. However, I do recall seeing your build thread, and you obviously know what you're doing.

While I don't actually own a Honda Pioneer 1000 machine (yet), and my ideas for it are currently theoretical, they are based on many years of prior experience gained from various custom offroad builds for Jeeps and other crazy creations. I only wish my crappy welds looked as good as yours, but I'm pretty good at fabrication work, so I tack everything in place, then take it to a good welding shop.

 

[ToddACimer]

My bolt holes are egging out, thus the question about thicker a arm bolt surfaces?

It would be easy to add a washer on the lowers if yours were egged out.

 

[Smitty335]

It would be easy to add a washer on the lowers if yours were egged out.

That's what i've got to do.Think the shock up grade did take care of the rest, we'll see?

 

[JTW]

Simple solution fellers...... KRX!!

 

[Smitty335]

Simple solution fellers...... KRX!!

A Hole!