P1000 Wheel spacer math??

[ohanacreek]

I’m still scratching my head on this.. yeah yeah yeah.. I get wider is more stable, COG, wider is bad because... yada yada yada... but I still don’t have any idea of what it all really means. So you have a stock machine, and you add a lift to it. Does that machine that was stable at 45’ now tip at 35’? If you add a 1” does that get you back 3,4,5’?? How about 2”? Is that twice the stability gain or does it start to plain off? I realize it’s all subjective in the real world, just curious what all those things actually translate to in a controlled situation.

I understand that the best answer is knowing your machine and picking the right lines.. but reality is most of us don’t get to spend enough time in the seat or we tweak and add s*** so often that it’s always changing. Rather than relying on the old ass meter, I’m curious how Much it all correlates.

Way Too much math I’m not digging those engineering textbooks out of the attic to even try to do the actual math. Simple answer keep added weight low, and lower on the machine. If you do anything that narrows the machine undo it, but consider spacers add forces to steering gear and suspension components they weren’t designed for.

Anything you do is going to change something else try to account for it without going too far.

Everyone that doesn’t do the actual math is going to have a different opinion of too far.

 

[Admin]

 

[Plumber32]

I’m still scratching my head on this.. yeah yeah yeah.. I get wider is more stable, COG, wider is bad because... yada yada yada... but I still don’t have any idea of what it all really means. So you have a stock machine, and you add a lift to it. Does that machine that was stable at 45’ now tip at 35’? If you add a 1” does that get you back 3,4,5’?? How about 2”? Is that twice the stability gain or does it start to plain off? I realize it’s all subjective in the real world, just curious what all those things actually translate to in a controlled situation.

I understand that the best answer is knowing your machine and picking the right lines.. but reality is most of us don’t get to spend enough time in the seat or we tweak and add s*** so often that it’s always changing. Rather than relying on the old ass meter, I’m curious how Much it all correlates.

Just admit your a s***ty driver. Even cpusher doesnt f up as much as you lol
Go back to rhe Flintstones comment you square foot!

 

[JTW]

It’s true.. part of being hung like a small Asian man!

 

[ToddACimer]

I’m still scratching my head on this.. yeah yeah yeah.. I get wider is more stable, COG, wider is bad because... yada yada yada... but I still don’t have any idea of what it all really means. So you have a stock machine, and you add a lift to it. Does that machine that was stable at 45’ now tip at 35’? If you add a 1” does that get you back 3,4,5’?? How about 2”? Is that twice the stability gain or does it start to plain off? I realize it’s all subjective in the real world, just curious what all those things actually translate to in a controlled situation.

I understand that the best answer is knowing your machine and picking the right lines.. but reality is most of us don’t get to spend enough time in the seat or we tweak and add s*** so often that it’s always changing. Rather than relying on the old ass meter, I’m curious how Much it all correlates.

Adding 1" wheel spacers will give you the perception of the slightly more stability at low angles of side slope but since you have not changed the vehicle CG or the suspension roll stability the vehicle will most likely tip at nearly the same maximum angle. Having an equal tire weight on each of the 4 corners would have a similar or greater affect on stability. The Pioneer is actually fairly stable even on 3 wheels because it is weight biased to the rear which gives a perception that it will roll long before it actually does. Making the rear end wider might just make it less predictable in a low speed or high slope flop.

 

[Ragnar406]

Stock width 62.9" if you added 2" spacers to stretch it to 66.9" all things being equal should improve stability by approximately 6% (62.9÷66.9=94.02 . 100-94=6)

However the increase in bump steer is compounded considerably not to mention the added width causing issues in tight trails and increased opportunity to tweak a tie rod.

Best bet is to learn to drive down trails without testing the roll cage, by picking better lines.

After reading on this thread last night I ran out to measure my front width and i am roughly 65" (this with highlifter lift and wheels that are +3.5 offset 9" tire in front) I will measure the rear width tonight.

 

[lee]

Has anyone done the math on what you gain or don’t gain from adding spacers or not?.

Yes.

 

[JTW]

Yes.

Lol.. would you happen to k ow a guy that could share?

 

[lee]

So if you google 'kst vehicle stability' you get all sorts of collage boy stuff on a simple method to look at the effect of track width vs CG hieght.
Or you can look up what @drfubar did on the tip angle and do a quick experiment to figure it out.

P1000m3 - Roll over found!! No fail!

You could look at the shipping weight of the new winch, throw a few lose weights on the bumper (its not like any of us work out) and test it again.
Or you could test with no spacers, with 1" spacers than with two 1" spacers on each wheel on one side (don't drive around like that).
With test data for +0, +1 and +2 you could infer what would happen up to probably +3" (at +4" you break the laws of physics and the earth will spin backwards).

Be really careful and don't drop your SxS on your foot (or worse).
Also, if you measure say 36 degrees don't think that you can drive on a slope at 36*.
A pebble the size of a pea will put you over.

 

[lee]

Obligatory picture to prove I know what I am talking about.

 

[JTW]

So if you google 'kst vehicle stability' you get all sorts of collage boy stuff on a simple method to look at the effect of track width vs CG hieght.
Or you can look up what @drfubar did on the tip angle and do a quick experiment to figure it out.

P1000m3 - Roll over found!! No fail!

You could look at the shipping weight of the new winch, throw a few lose weights on the bumper (its not like any of us work out) and test it again.
Or you could test with no spacers, with 1" spacers than with two 1" spacers on each wheel on one side (don't drive around like that).
With test data for +0, +1 and +2 you could infer what would happen up to probably +3" (at +4" you break the laws of physics and the earth will spin backwards).

Be really careful and don't drop your SxS on your foot (or worse).
Also, if you measure say 36 degrees don't think that you can drive on a slope at 36*.
A pebble the size of a pea will put you over.

I’m going to have to sper-a-ment.. I saw DrFubars and that’s part of what had me thinking.. I’m not convinced spacers are for me... hence the curiosity of actual degrees of change. It’s gospel on the p500 threads that when you go up you go out.. but what does it really gain and mean. How far from that stock bike are we really getting adding this or that. Does 2” REALLY make that much of a difference?? My wife would say, YES!! Luckily she’s not good with measurements or math..

 

[ToddACimer]

So this information is worth the read if you actually care but the numbers are quite vague.

Take a look at this if you really want to calculate...https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...3AmYQFggoMAE&usg=AOvVaw0NSCeiAVW4xUWc_ULR3nyR

Then consider this chart

The TTR ratio per their calculations is basically equal to the static stability factor at no speed. So 1/2 the track width ÷ the vertical CG height is the TTR per the chart above. Taking a stand at the VCG I would pick the the center of the underside of the seat cushion or maybe with people a bit higher. About 30". The width is 63". So (63/2)÷30= 1.05. based on the chart above the tilt angle should be around 45-46°

Adding 1" per side
65/2 / 30 = 1.08
Maybe 46-47°

Adding 2" per side
67/2 / 30= 1.12
Probably less than 48°

Overall I'm still going to say you might gain a wee bit of tilt angle but I still doubt you'll feel way more stable. It's also unlikely that you'll maintain tractive effort in any off road situation to reach within 10% of these numbers and any velocity can easily bounce you over the edge as this is a static calculation.



Edit: I scared myself a bit with this math... After writing this post I read @Drfubars post . The calculation from UNSW might be better than I expected

 

[JTW]

So this information is worth the read if you actually care but the numbers are quite vague.

Take a look at this if you really want to calculate...https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...3AmYQFggoMAE&usg=AOvVaw0NSCeiAVW4xUWc_ULR3nyR

Then consider this chart
View attachment 59696

The TTR ratio per their calculations is basically equal to the static stability factor at no speed. So 1/2 the track width ÷ the vertical CG height is the TTR per the track above. Taking a stand at the VCG I would pick the the center of the underside of the seat cushion or maybe with people a bit higher. About 30". The width is 63". So (63/2)÷30= 1.05. based on the chart above the tilt angle should be around 45-46°

Adding 1" per side
65/2 / 30 = 1.08
Maybe 46-47°

Adding 2" per side
67/2 / 30= 1.12
Probably less than 48°

Overall I'm still going to say you might gain a wee bit of tilt angle but I still doubt you'll feel way more stable. It's also unlikely that you'll maintain tractive effort in any off road situation to reach within 10% of these numbers and any velocity can easily bounce you over the edge as this is a static calculation.



Edit: I scared myself a bit with this math... After writing this post I read @Drfubars post . The calculation from UNSW might be better than I expected

That’s exactly what I was looking for Todd! Thanks!!

I’m actually surprised the (2” lift) height doesn’t impact it more. And I really didn’t expect the operator/load to have quite that big a difference on it.. It’s one thing driving it and feeling it/ having it actually happen. It’s another seeing the numbers and what a difference it measurably is.

 

[ToddACimer]

That’s exactly what I was looking for Todd! Thanks!!

I’m actually surprised the (2” lift) height doesn’t impact it more. And I really didn’t expect the operator/load to have quite that big a difference on it.. It’s one thing driving it and feeling it/ having it actually happen. It’s another seeing the numbers and what a difference it measurably is.

So after reading this, does the winch belong just above the skid plate or way on top of the bumper?

 

[JTW]

So after reading this, does the winch belong just above the skid plate or way on top of the bumper?

Lmao.. touché!!

I would still rather have it up top... but my beer might be a bit warmer now!

 

[lee]

Be careful with the data thease guys put out.
The SxS shows a 5*~8* change from empty to loaded (rider + Max cargo).
But there data is a range for 5 vehicles including a Rhino and a Tomcar.
I have never actually seen a Tomcar (Israeli made vehicle that is not a ROV).

The quad bike numbers are almost laughable except there goal is to force ATVs off the market.
They are measuring the rider in a static posiotion.
There is a section discussing 'rider active' but all they do is discount it because they cant quantify it.
That's like saying the earth is flat because I have never been out of the county.
Thease guys have tunnel vision from looking out the little hole where they have shoved there heads. (Sorry I tried really hard not to color this with my personal opinion but it slipped out).

 

[ToddACimer]

Be careful with the data thease guys put out.
The SxS shows a 5*~8* change from empty to loaded (rider + Max cargo).
But there data is a range for 5 vehicles including a Rhino and a Tomcar.
I have never actually seen a Tomcar (Israeli made vehicle that is not a ROV).

The quad bike numbers are almost laughable except there goal is to force ATVs off the market.
They are measuring the rider in a static posiotion.
There is a section discussing 'rider active' but all they do is discount it because they cant quantify it.
That's like saying the earth is flat because I have never been out of the county.
Thease guys have tunnel vision from looking out the little hole where they have shoved there heads. (Sorry I tried really hard not to color this with my personal opinion but it slipped out).

That's why I avoided any configuration and relied solely on TTR value as a calculation and tilt angle as a correlation. In this calculation it is critical that the vehicle be balanced well front to rear as well as side to side for the numbers to have any validity

 

[JTW]

Be careful with the data thease guys put out.
The SxS shows a 5*~8* change from empty to loaded (rider + Max cargo).
But there data is a range for 5 vehicles including a Rhino and a Tomcar.
I have never actually seen a Tomcar (Israeli made vehicle that is not a ROV).

The quad bike numbers are almost laughable except there goal is to force ATVs off the market.
They are measuring the rider in a static posiotion.
There is a section discussing 'rider active' but all they do is discount it because they cant quantify it.
That's like saying the earth is flat because I have never been out of the county.
Thease guys have tunnel vision from looking out the little hole where they have shoved there heads. (Sorry I tried really hard not to color this with my personal opinion but it slipped out).

So I’ll ask this... if you added a HL lift to an otherwise stock PK5 would you add spacers to it?

 

[lee]

So I’ll ask this... if you added a HL lift to an otherwise stock PK5 would you add spacers to it?

I was kind of thinking its perfect straight from Honda.
Yep, that is exactly the way I would have done it.

I don't like spacers.
Maybe they are less objectionable if you are running the same offset wheel front and rear and your spacing the rear out to match the front.
I guess I should say why I don't like them.
They are ugly and there mother dresses them funny.
And, with a spacer you have a nut that might come lose but you have to pull the wheel to check it (but I'm lazy and I won't).

I also don't like lift.
If you are going to torture the axles I want more travel, a lighter spring rate and a tuned shock.
Maybe it sounds like I want to reinvent the wheel (just a little bit).
I like the idea of the W/E shocks for the p500 for this reason.
Sorry, I don't keep up with the p1k mods to be able to comment.

If I recall correctly you have access to a second p1k.
You can drive them back to back and compare.
Dose it work for you?
Dose some one have some spacers you could try out?

I can tell you what I think but who knows, I might have a little tunnel vision myself...

 

[ToddACimer]

I agree the liability of wheel spacers bugs me and based on our simple calculator above a 2" wheel spacer with a 2" lift barely brings you back to stock. If I were running a 2" lift I'd probably look at ways to reduce vehicle CG rather than make the machine wider. Maybe a flatter wider cooler, a low mount winch, under seat storage rather than roof storage basically anything that can offset raising the vehicle. Now keep in mind you raised a 1800lbs machine and all your gear 2" so lowering a 50lb winch 13" is going to be a marginal difference

 

[JTW]

I was kind of thinking its perfect straight from Honda.
Yep, that is exactly the way I would have done it.

I don't like spacers.
Maybe they are less objectionable if you are running the same offset wheel front and rear and your spacing the rear out to match the front.
I guess I should say why I don't like them.
They are ugly and there mother dresses them funny.
And, with a spacer you have a nut that might come lose but you have to pull the wheel to check it (but I'm lazy and I won't).

I also don't like lift.
If you are going to torture the axles I want more travel, a lighter spring rate and a tuned shock.
Maybe it sounds like I want to reinvent the wheel (just a little bit).
I like the idea of the W/E shocks for the p500 for this reason.
Sorry, I don't keep up with the p1k mods to be able to comment.

If I recall correctly you have access to a second p1k.
You can drive them back to back and compare.
Dose it work for you?
Dose some one have some spacers you could try out?

I can tell you what I think but who knows, I might have a little tunnel vision myself...

Point taken.. just picking your brain olé Honda wise one!