Honda talon stiff power steering

[Kenjones21]

Paul,

A few Talon owners elsewhere mentioned the power issue being resolved with a second battery added. They said some had observed the ps issue starting when they added a number of accessories.

I’m ignorant so wanted to see if you think a second battery would help?

s

I'm running dual batteries on both of mine and has zero affect on the power steering. My buddies which is stored at my house has just the single battery and there is no difference on steering.

 

[Admin]

 

[PaulF]

But I do have several torque wrenches. I think almost everyone has those.

For reference, I tested my steering effort with the engine off and found the hardest is just past center in both directions. This is easy to do with a digital torque wrench with lb/in. These are the max it takes to turn the wheel at different PSI with a 30X10X15 Terrabite...

• 20 PSI takes 230 lb/in (19 lb/ft)
• 12 PSI takes 270 lb/in (23 lb/ft)
• 6 PSI takes 320 lb/in (27 lb/ft)

To me, it seems that 180 watts is just not sufficient for my application. I found some aftermarket info and the smallest unit i could find was 220 watt and it provides 24 lb/ft. That would make the 180 watt Talon unit provide somewhere in the 20 lb/ft range

Preliminary tests are pointing to insufficient wire from the EPS ECU to the EPS Motor.

I will post back after I get a chance to drive it a couple hundred miles under different styles and terrains.

After testing the torque requirements, I went for a couple rides with the #4 test feed wires. Didn't need to go too far to feel that the steering assist is definitely better but I would still consider it inadequate and from my research above, I think it should have a 220-250 watt system. I did tests at 2 different pressures...

• 20 PSI on pavement. I don't generally use 20 psi but have done so in the past because my beadlocks leak so I overfill them sometimes. This scenario is MUCH improved. Drove around and the steering was much like a car. Mainly one handed driving and the occasional "loss of assist" when approaching corners is gone. Dead stop with no brakes had no loss and foot on the brake only had very minor loss.
• 12 PSI on pavement. Driving was similar to 20psi with very slight loss in a couple corners. This "phenomena" is so random for me, it just sometime happens. During this test, it happened much less often and did was not a total assist loss like it does sometimes with stock.
• 12 PSI on hard packed dirt. This seemed to be the most improved. Even stopped in 4WD, the power assist was acceptable.
• 12 PSI in soft dirt. Also improved. Stop and turn left/right a few times to dig the tires in and only some minor reduction in assist but no total loss of assist like before

I could not find an area close to me for rock crawling except some parking stops that I could mimic a frequent occurrence for me during crawling (pulling up to rocks at an angle). I pulled up against one at an angle and tried to turn against while "2 footing" it to get over in an effort to change my approach. As I suspected, the steering struggled but it did manage to assist me and I didn't have to put as much effort to get the wheel turned and climb the parking stop. With stock steering, this would have been all manual and more work.

Even with full power over #4 cables, the power assist isn't going to be as good as I want. It is what it is. Without a higher watt system, it will suffer somewhat. BUT, it can be improved a little with 1% wire loss as apposed to 8%+.

Problem is, to get the loss to 1%, it takes #4 wire to do it and that is not practical at all. There are no connectors that can accommodate that size of wire and my test cables are unsealed and held in with duct tape and wire ties , it is about as redneck as you can get.

So, the only practical thing to do is move the ECU right next to the motor. The 12 gauge wires can carry the 30 amp load for 6" with less than 1% drop. The #10 feed wires will get connected to the winch cables and the small (low current) wires will get extended. I will do this in the next couple days and report back.

I hate to hack up my wires in the name of experimentation but I MUST find a way to get reasonable steering on this machine.

 

[Vondy]

Keep up the great work. Looking forward to a possible solution or improvement.

 

[Randy6911]

My power steering light starting flashing at random times and frequency. When it flashed the steering seemed to lose the power assist. I put a new battery in and everything cleared up. No issue now, no flashing Lights.

 

[PaulF]

So, the only practical thing to do is move the ECU right next to the motor. The 12 gauge wires can carry the 30 amp load for 6" with less than 1% drop. The #10 feed wires will get connected to the winch cables and the small (low current) wires will get extended. I will do this in the next couple days and report back.

I hate to hack up my wires in the name of experimentation but I MUST find a way to get reasonable steering on this machine.

Update!!! I took the plunge and hacked up my harness. I extended most of the tiny ~18 and ~20 gauge low current and trigger wires about 6 feet to the front and moved the ECU right next to the motor. I cut and spliced the 3 torque sensor wires directly from the steering shaft to the ECU.

Now the main power + lead is less than 2 feet and fed from the factory winch cable. I removed the EPS fuse above the battery and installed a 40 amp auto reset breaker. The main ground is bolted to the frame and is only about 6" long. This combination is providing a minimal .1 volt drop (.72%). This is outstanding.

The leads from the ECU to the motor are now about 5" long. This is good for 35 amps and provides a .05 volt drop (.83%) and this is also outstanding.

Decided to leave the second battery off for a fair test. It was late and COLD so I was only able to do a static test and I am somewhat optimistic. Tires still at 12 psi and I can now index finger the wheel from lock to lock without any stiffness or sluggishness. Put a torque wrench and it only takes 30 lb/in to turn the wheel at any point in the steering except near both locks where it take a little more effort to overcome something in the steering system. I have been noticing this near both locks but it is much less now.

One thing I did discover when extending the wires. There is 1 wire labeled 4WD IND1. This comes from the ground trigger on the i4WD relay. When grounded, the PS ECU bumps the max amperage to the motor from 30 to 35 (making it a little better 210 watt system) so you have more assist in 4WD. This brings up a point for those with i4WD bypass switches. When you are bypassing i4WD, you are not getting the same PS assist as i4WD provides. Those with i4WD bypass need to also bypass this wire in a similar fashion as the front diff clutch. You cannot simply splice in and ground the wire, it will kick in the i4WD, you must bypass it (or cut and ground it permanently for higher assist all the time). I was going to hook it to my bypass but I might just ground it and have the extra boost all the time.

I cannot wait for tomorrow to take my machine for a spin. If the static testing is any indication, I think I will be glad I did this hacking to my harness.

Relocated PS ECU right next to the motor...

Nice short motor power leads...

 

[lifeisgoodsteve]

Ahem...with such methodical and meticulous R&D you should be on the Honda payroll if you solve this baby.

Actually, if you do end up genuinely fixing it it with stock tires (as my dealer said my issue was due to 32" tires) might be worth considering documenting it and then getting all the Talon owners we know to send in emails to Honda asking them to fix it on a recall or something.

Considering the price of the machine which advertises Power Steering, it should actually work and think we might be able to make progress on something like that. You'll have done the hard work. After that just takes some time to call and write.

Worth a shot!

 

[PaulF]

Ahem...with such methodical and meticulous R&D you should be on the Honda payroll if you solve this baby.

Actually, if you do end up genuinely fixing it it with stock tires (as my dealer said my issue was due to 32" tires) might be worth considering documenting it and then getting all the Talon owners we know to send in emails to Honda asking them to fix it on a recall or something.

Considering the price of the machine which advertises Power Steering, it should actually work and think we might be able to make progress on something like that. You'll have done the hard work. After that just takes some time to call and write.

Worth a shot!

IF it fixes the issues, Honda won't do jack s*** for existing units. The cost of re-doing the wiring harness will be too much. They will however take MY "fix" and implement into a newer model year and call it "Improved Power Assisted Steering"

IF (and only IF) this "hack" provides a noticeable "improvement" to the PS assist, I may look into manufacturing a "Plug and Play" solution for everyone else so you don't have to hack your harness. I cringe every time I cut a factory wire and "splice/heatshrink" just adds failure points. It would take a harness with 6 new connectors, heavier wire in some spots, a fuse or circuit breaker and some sort of mount for the EPS.

 

[lifeisgoodsteve]

Yeah, that's a heck of a lot more realistic and would be great if there was a clean plug and play kit!!

 

[Montecresto]

…….then getting all the Talon owners we know to send in emails to Honda asking them to fix it on a recall or something.

Yeah, that’s not going to happen in this lifetime……😂

 

[PaulF]

I cannot wait for tomorrow to take my machine for a spin. If the static testing is any indication, I think I will be glad I did this hacking to my harness.

Happy to report that so far I am VERY pleased with the outcome of this mod/wiring hack! More pleased than I expected but I still need to do a bunch more testing, especially in 4WD.

Air pressure at 12 PSI on asphalt and tested with only the (almost 3 year old) factory battery connected to make sure my 2nd battery wasn't augmenting the steering. Driving my Talon on pavement is now a different experience...

• Stopped on concrete is 1 finger and asphalt is almost 1 finger, 2 fingers easily lock to lock.
• As soon as I start moving and maintain 1 MPH or more the steering is effortless.
• Hard braking into a corner is now perfect. This was one of my biggest gripes about the steering. No more assist "hesitation" is what I think is an appropriate term.
• Bumps, potholes, man covers and small curbs no longer provide feedback. Still need to test some larger bumps and rocks.
• Powered up against a big rock and there was still some assist provided where before there was none. I don't expect PS to turn the wheel in this scenario but it used to provide absolutely no assist. Now at least it helps.

These were very crude tests but I could immediately tell there was quite a bit of improvement. Much more testing to do but I am at least very optimistic now. I was honestly considering going in another direction over the steering. I am not young anymore and the lack/loss of assist at times has been downright dangerous for me because I don't have the arm strength I used to have and a few times it has really surprised (scared) me.

 

[PaulF]

Question for all those following here. If you wanted/needed to do this to improve your steering, would you "hack" your own like I did or you rather buy and install a plug and play kit. Plug and play meaning...

1. Disconnect all battery negative cables.
2. Remove the rubber mat covering the ECU, the center console, and the cowl behind the hood.
3. Unplug and remove the ECU.
4. Disconnect the torque sensor and the motor leads.
5. Run a provided wire harness down the tunnel to extend the 21 pin control connector.
6. Attach the power feed leads via a provided circuit breaker to the factory winch cables with provided studs or to your existing winch relay if a winch is installed.
7. Mount ECU under cowl using supplied mount.
8. Plug in the torque sensor, motor and ECU to the new harness.
9. Reconnect battery(s) and test.
10. Put the cowl, center console and mat back.

Probably cost around $250-$300 and take the average person about 90 minutes.

 

[Montecresto]

Happy to report that so far I am VERY pleased with the outcome of this mod/wiring hack! More pleased than I expected but I still need to do a bunch more testing, especially in 4WD.

Air pressure at 12 PSI on asphalt and tested with only the (almost 3 year old) factory battery connected to make sure my 2nd battery wasn't augmenting the steering. Driving my Talon on pavement is now a different experience...

• Stopped on concrete is 1 finger and asphalt is almost 1 finger, 2 fingers easily lock to lock.
• As soon as I start moving and maintain 1 MPH or more the steering is effortless.
• Hard braking into a corner is now perfect. This was one of my biggest gripes about the steering. No more assist "hesitation" is what I think is an appropriate term.
• Bumps, potholes, man covers and small curbs no longer provide feedback. Still need to test some larger bumps and rocks.
• Powered up against a big rock and there was still some assist provided where before there was none. I don't expect PS to turn the wheel in this scenario but it used to provide absolutely no assist. Now at least it helps.

These were very crude tests but I could immediately tell there was quite a bit of improvement. Much more testing to do but I am at least very optimistic now. I was honestly considering going in another direction over the steering. I am not young anymore and the lack/loss of assist at times has been downright dangerous for me because I don't have the arm strength I used to have and a few times it has really surprised (scared) me.

That’s great news Paul, but what’s confusing to me about all this is that even though we (presumably) all have the same wiring and ECU location, we don’t all have the same steering issue. Any thoughts on why that might be….?

 

[CID]

I'd never cut and hack my own, I just can't bring myself to do something that extreme and the early part of my career was wiring simple circuits. I'd be all over your guesstimated price.

 

[Hondasxs]

Great job @PaulF with the detailed testing.

The Pioneer 1000 PS box is in this very location.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[PaulF]

That’s great news Paul, but what’s confusing to me about all this is that even though we (presumably) all have the same wiring and ECU location, we don’t all have the same steering issue. Any thoughts on why that might be….?

Different tires, pressures, driving styles, etc. I am certain that if I put my tires on your machine and drive yours like I drive mine, your machine will do exactly the same thing.

 

[PaulF]

Great job @PaulF with the detailed testing.

The Pioneer 1000 PS box is in this very location.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Well that explains my earlier question, "Pioneer and Talon share the same motor so why doesn't the Pioneer have steering issues?"...

Because in Honda's infinite wisdom, they moved the ECU from about 1 foot if wire to 7 feet and expected to pump 35 amps over a #12 wire and that doesn't work very well.

Pioneer ECU right next to the motor (kinda like what I just did ). They couldn't just leave well enough alone...

 

[Smitty335]

Question for all those following here. If you wanted/needed to do this to improve your steering, would you "hack" your own like I did or you rather buy and install a plug and play kit. Plug and play meaning...

1. Disconnect all battery negative cables.
2. Remove the rubber mat covering the ECU, the center console, and the cowl behind the hood.
3. Unplug and remove the ECU.
4. Disconnect the torque sensor and the motor leads.
5. Run a provided wire harness down the tunnel to extend the 21 pin control connector.
6. Attach the power feed leads via a provided circuit breaker to the factory winch cables with provided studs or to your existing winch relay if a winch is installed.
7. Mount ECU under cowl using supplied mount.
8. Plug in the torque sensor, motor and ECU to the new harness.
9. Reconnect battery(s) and test.
10. Put the cowl, center console and mat back.

Probably cost around $250-$300 and take the average person about 90 minutes.

Think your going to be busy?

 

[HondaTech]

Update!!! I took the plunge and hacked up my harness. I extended most of the tiny ~18 and ~20 gauge low current and trigger wires about 6 feet to the front and moved the ECU right next to the motor. I cut and spliced the 3 torque sensor wires directly from the steering shaft to the ECU.

Now the main power + lead is less than 2 feet and fed from the factory winch cable. I removed the EPS fuse above the battery and installed a 40 amp auto reset breaker. The main ground is bolted to the frame and is only about 6" long. This combination is providing a minimal .1 volt drop (.72%). This is outstanding.

The leads from the ECU to the motor are now about 5" long. This is good for 35 amps and provides a .05 volt drop (.83%) and this is also outstanding.

Decided to leave the second battery off for a fair test. It was late and COLD so I was only able to do a static test and I am somewhat optimistic. Tires still at 12 psi and I can now index finger the wheel from lock to lock without any stiffness or sluggishness. Put a torque wrench and it only takes 30 lb/in to turn the wheel at any point in the steering except near both locks where it take a little more effort to overcome something in the steering system. I have been noticing this near both locks but it is much less now.

One thing I did discover when extending the wires. There is 1 wire labeled 4WD IND1. This comes from the ground trigger on the i4WD relay. When grounded, the PS ECU bumps the max amperage to the motor from 30 to 35 (making it a little better 210 watt system) so you have more assist in 4WD. This brings up a point for those with i4WD bypass switches. When you are bypassing i4WD, you are not getting the same PS assist as i4WD provides. Those with i4WD bypass need to also bypass this wire in a similar fashion as the front diff clutch. You cannot simply splice in and ground the wire, it will kick in the i4WD, you must bypass it (or cut and ground it permanently for higher assist all the time). I was going to hook it to my bypass but I might just ground it and have the extra boost all the time.

I cannot wait for tomorrow to take my machine for a spin. If the static testing is any indication, I think I will be glad I did this hacking to my harness.

Relocated PS ECU right next to the motor...

View attachment 315872

Nice short motor power leads...
View attachment 315874

I suppose this is why the Pioneer has fewer issues, with the PS control unit being under the hood about 10 inches away from the motor makes the voltage drop less.

 

[TerryH]

Question for all those following here. If you wanted/needed to do this to improve your steering, would you "hack" your own like I did or you rather buy and install a plug and play kit. Plug and play meaning...

1. Disconnect all battery negative cables.
2. Remove the rubber mat covering the ECU, the center console, and the cowl behind the hood.
3. Unplug and remove the ECU.
4. Disconnect the torque sensor and the motor leads.
5. Run a provided wire harness down the tunnel to extend the 21 pin control connector.
6. Attach the power feed leads via a provided circuit breaker to the factory winch cables with provided studs or to your existing winch relay if a winch is installed.
7. Mount ECU under cowl using supplied mount.
8. Plug in the torque sensor, motor and ECU to the new harness.
9. Reconnect battery(s) and test.
10. Put the cowl, center console and mat back.

Probably cost around $250-$300 and take the average person about 90 minutes.

I absolutely would be in for a plug and play solution to this problem. Be glad to send $300 right now! Hope you make this a reality Paul!

 

[Montecresto]

Different tires, pressures, driving styles, etc. I am certain that if I put my tires on your machine and drive yours like I drive mine, your machine will do exactly the same thing.

I’m just comparing the finger steering test as you described it stopped on concrete, effortless steering at slow speeds etc…
Mine is like that now.
Perhaps there’s also differences between 2 and 4 seater…?