Anybody want a Turbo kit?

[Hometeam]

My emails and conversation with Oscar finally shed some light on the reason why the Talon tends to run rich at higher altitudes. It is subtle on the N/A motors but can be very noticeable on the Turbos. It is rather complex and has to do with the back end of the ECU. It cannot be corrected with the available tables and there is really nothing that can be done with a basic tuner. There is something in the base code of the ECU and that needs to be fixed by mother Honda. Jackson has the ability to crack the back end and has fixed it in their latest firmware but Jackson only deals with Turbo models. Maybe one of the other tuners like Hess, PwrTune or even DynoJet can come up with something, we will just have to wait and see.

This issue is so vague and complex, your dealer will look like a "dear in the headlights" if you try to discuss it with them. I doubt any of them know the inner working of an ECU, let alone how to build a flash and then apply that flash to the ECU to correct this issue. It just isn't going to happen unless mother Honda gets involved.

So just to clarify then, would you say that the turbo tune will now actually run better afr and exhaust temps than the stock setup, since the stock NA needs to be adjusted? I am planning on a turbo but wanted all this to be worked out on the tuning side before I did it. I am happy the Jackson got it figured out! I had heard (Not that I believe everything I hear), and this will be vague, but that there was a problem with the "system" that Honda chose to use and that it was maybe older tech that had trouble compensating for big changes in elevation....not sure where I read that. But this is good news for the Turbos!! Turbo here I come!!!🥳🤓

 

[Admin]

 

[PaulF]

So just to clarify then, would you say that the turbo tune will now actually run better afr and exhaust temps than the stock setup, since the stock NA needs to be adjusted? I am planning on a turbo but wanted all this to be worked out on the tuning side before I did it. I am happy the Jackson got it figured out! I had heard (Not that I believe everything I hear), and this will be vague, but that there was a problem with the "system" that Honda chose to use and that it was maybe older tech that had trouble compensating for big changes in elevation....not sure where I read that. But this is good news for the Turbos!! Turbo here I come!!!🥳🤓

The Turbo and N/A tunes are completely different. The Turbo even uses bigger injectors so most of the tune (even the DCT portion) was re-written to accommodate the Turbo.

Jackson has a strict set of parameters they must meet/balance to make the machine run good, maintain decent fuel mileage, not blow up the engine AND meet EPA and CARB requirements. The EPA/CARB requirements are the part that makes it most difficult. Other tuners don't abide by those regulations and (like car tunes) will have to change their ways or go out of business when the EPA decides to start going after them like they have with auto tuners.

All off road machines use older technology because it is cheap and don't need the overly complex ECU's that modern cars use. A modern car ECU is packed with crap that a SxS just doesn't need so the ECU doesn't need to be as fast/powerful. The ECU's used in ATV's and UTV's are inferior to modern cars but are very capable for their intended use. They are also 10 years behind on emissions so the ECU doesn't need to be that up to date anyway.

There are really 2 issues here, the lack of sensors and some base programming in the ECU. It is not necessary but it would help if the machine used an MAF, a knock sensor and had a separate Baro sensor.

• MAF sensors are notoriously fragile so I understand why they don't use them in off road machines.
• Knock sensor would be nice but not necessary. They also are very sensitive and probably wouldn't work well on a SxS.
• Separate Baro sensors are useful with fast changes to pressure (like climbing). Many vehicles (including the Talon) use the MAP sensor to determine Baro pressure (aka altitude) but that is only accurate when the key is on and the engine is off or at WOT. I would assume they went this way because a separate Baro sensor needs to be open to atmospheric air and that just spells trouble on a SxS. It would need to be filtered and vented high to prevent water entering it.

That leaves the base programming (programming that cannot be manipulated with a tuner line the PV3). Not sure if it is in the BIOS or the O/S but there is something wrong there that Jackson has identified and fixed (Oscar would not elaborate for understandable reasons). So yes, since Jackson has identified and fixed the core issue, the corrections that Jackson has done should fix the ECU and make the Turbo better than the factory. This "fix" is not something I can do by tuning the tables, it is something deeper than that.

And to clarify the muffler issue I keep seeing pop up. It is simple, Jackson's system must meet EPA/CARB so they CANNOT (and will not) write a tune for an aftermarket muffler unless that muffler meets EPA/CARB specs. That means it MUST have a catalytic converter. None of the aftermarket mufflers have a converter and none of them ever will so you will not see a Jackson tune for anything but a stock muffler. Only exception is the Race Team, they get a pass on the EPA crap just like NASCAR and other racers. Besides that, the stock muffler is VERY capable and Jackson found it produces within a couple horse power of anything else they tested so far.

ALL other tunes and mufflers are technically ILLEGAL but I think the EPA is years away from enforcing off road requirements, they barely have a handle on cars .

 

[Hometeam]

The Turbo and N/A tunes are completely different. The Turbo even uses bigger injectors so most of the tune (even the DCT portion) was re-written to accommodate the Turbo.

Jackson has a strict set of parameters they must meet/balance to make the machine run good, maintain decent fuel mileage, not blow up the engine AND meet EPA and CARB requirements. The EPA/CARB requirements are the part that makes it most difficult. Other tuners don't abide by those regulations and (like car tunes) will have to change their ways or go out of business when the EPA decides to start going after them like they have with auto tuners.

All off road machines use older technology because it is cheap and don't need the overly complex ECU's that modern cars use. A modern car ECU is packed with crap that a SxS just doesn't need so the ECU doesn't need to be as fast/powerful. The ECU's used in ATV's and UTV's are inferior to modern cars but are very capable for their intended use. They are also 10 years behind on emissions so the ECU doesn't need to be that up to date anyway.

There are really 2 issues here, the lack of sensors and some base programming in the ECU. It is not necessary but it would help if the machine used an MAF, a knock sensor and had a separate Baro sensor.

• MAF sensors are notoriously fragile so I understand why they don't use them in off road machines.
• Knock sensor would be nice but not necessary. They also are very sensitive and probably wouldn't work well on a SxS.
• Separate Baro sensors are useful with fast changes to pressure (like climbing). Many vehicles (including the Talon) use the MAP sensor to determine Baro pressure (aka altitude) but that is only accurate when the key is on and the engine is off or at WOT. I would assume they went this way because a separate Baro sensor needs to be open to atmospheric air and that just spells trouble on a SxS. It would need to be filtered and vented high to prevent water entering it.

That leaves the base programming (programming that cannot be manipulated with a tuner line the PV3). Not sure if it is in the BIOS or the O/S but there is something wrong there that Jackson has identified and fixed (Oscar would not elaborate for understandable reasons). So yes, since Jackson has identified and fixed the core issue, the corrections that Jackson has done should fix the ECU and make the Turbo better than the factory. This "fix" is not something I can do by tuning the tables, it is something deeper than that.

And to clarify the muffler issue I keep seeing pop up. It is simple, Jackson's system must meet EPA/CARB so they CANNOT (and will not) write a tune for an aftermarket muffler unless that muffler meets EPA/CARB specs. That means it MUST have a catalytic converter. None of the aftermarket mufflers have a converter and none of them ever will so you will not see a Jackson tune for anything but a stock muffler. Only exception is the Race Team, they get a pass on the EPA crap just like NASCAR and other racers. Besides that, the stock muffler is VERY capable and Jackson found it produces within a couple horse power of anything else they tested so far.

ALL other tunes and mufflers are technically ILLEGAL but I think the EPA is years away from enforcing off road requirements, they barely have a handle on cars .

Thanks Paul! That makes a lot of sense what you said! I appreciate the indepth explanation. I always like to learn more about how these are set-up!

 

[HondaTech]

My emails and conversation with Oscar finally shed some light on the reason why the Talon tends to run rich at higher altitudes. It is subtle on the N/A motors but can be very noticeable on the Turbos. It is rather complex and has to do with the back end of the ECU. It cannot be corrected with the available tables and there is really nothing that can be done with a basic tuner. There is something in the base code of the ECU and that needs to be fixed by mother Honda. Jackson has the ability to crack the back end and has fixed it in their latest firmware but Jackson only deals with Turbo models. Maybe one of the other tuners like Hess, PwrTune or even DynoJet can come up with something, we will just have to wait and see.

This issue is so vague and complex, your dealer will look like a "dear in the headlights" if you try to discuss it with them. I doubt any of them know the inner working of an ECU, let alone how to build a flash and then apply that flash to the ECU to correct this issue. It just isn't going to happen unless mother Honda gets involved.

We're helpless on alot of things nowadays, tbh.

I had a Goldwing last month that the customer complained about the screen going nuts when he plugged his Iphone in for Apple carplay. Honestly, what did he expect me to do? I have nothing to connect to the audio system or display for diagnostics. Hell, our diagnostic system for the engine/trans, etc is mediocre at best. I can't do any function test (shut and injector off, or turn the fan on remotely). It alows us to read the sensor output and data such as that, but not much else.

I mean we figured out the Live Valve steering angle sensor issue we had a couple months ago that made it seem like the new sensors we ordered were defective out of the box. Turns out the SCU doesn't recognize the new part until it initialized and will throw a code until the procedure is attempted.

There's instances where we look like total idiots because we honestly have no idea how the system operates, and without knowing how something works, you cant even begin to repair it.

 

[HondaTech]

The Turbo and N/A tunes are completely different. The Turbo even uses bigger injectors so most of the tune (even the DCT portion) was re-written to accommodate the Turbo.

Jackson has a strict set of parameters they must meet/balance to make the machine run good, maintain decent fuel mileage, not blow up the engine AND meet EPA and CARB requirements. The EPA/CARB requirements are the part that makes it most difficult. Other tuners don't abide by those regulations and (like car tunes) will have to change their ways or go out of business when the EPA decides to start going after them like they have with auto tuners.

All off road machines use older technology because it is cheap and don't need the overly complex ECU's that modern cars use. A modern car ECU is packed with crap that a SxS just doesn't need so the ECU doesn't need to be as fast/powerful. The ECU's used in ATV's and UTV's are inferior to modern cars but are very capable for their intended use. They are also 10 years behind on emissions so the ECU doesn't need to be that up to date anyway.

There are really 2 issues here, the lack of sensors and some base programming in the ECU. It is not necessary but it would help if the machine used an MAF, a knock sensor and had a separate Baro sensor.

• MAF sensors are notoriously fragile so I understand why they don't use them in off road machines.
• Knock sensor would be nice but not necessary. They also are very sensitive and probably wouldn't work well on a SxS.
• Separate Baro sensors are useful with fast changes to pressure (like climbing). Many vehicles (including the Talon) use the MAP sensor to determine Baro pressure (aka altitude) but that is only accurate when the key is on and the engine is off or at WOT. I would assume they went this way because a separate Baro sensor needs to be open to atmospheric air and that just spells trouble on a SxS. It would need to be filtered and vented high to prevent water entering it.

That leaves the base programming (programming that cannot be manipulated with a tuner line the PV3). Not sure if it is in the BIOS or the O/S but there is something wrong there that Jackson has identified and fixed (Oscar would not elaborate for understandable reasons). So yes, since Jackson has identified and fixed the core issue, the corrections that Jackson has done should fix the ECU and make the Turbo better than the factory. This "fix" is not something I can do by tuning the tables, it is something deeper than that.

And to clarify the muffler issue I keep seeing pop up. It is simple, Jackson's system must meet EPA/CARB so they CANNOT (and will not) write a tune for an aftermarket muffler unless that muffler meets EPA/CARB specs. That means it MUST have a catalytic converter. None of the aftermarket mufflers have a converter and none of them ever will so you will not see a Jackson tune for anything but a stock muffler. Only exception is the Race Team, they get a pass on the EPA crap just like NASCAR and other racers. Besides that, the stock muffler is VERY capable and Jackson found it produces within a couple horse power of anything else they tested so far.

ALL other tunes and mufflers are technically ILLEGAL but I think the EPA is years away from enforcing off road requirements, they barely have a handle on cars .

The Goldwings and inline 4 bikes have knock sensors and the last gen Wing had a baro sensor for pressure reference. The offroad world is basically in the OBD1 era in some instances.

 

[hotrod8605]

I have noticed this hard hit start issue with my talon a handful of times also. I knew it was an over fueling issue on the startup but I didn’t know the cause. I want a turbo badly, especially after putting 32” 8 ply tires on bead locks and bolting them on the unit.

 

[Montecresto]

especially after putting 32” 8 ply tires on bead locks and bolting them on the unit.

Amazing how we create our own problems....🤣🤣🤣

 

[hotrod8605]

Amazing how we create our own problems....🤣🤣🤣

yes it is 😆 I mean the difference wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be but it certainly struggles to top out now! I do like the improved top speed of 85+ now!

 

[Montecresto]

yes it is 😆 I mean the difference wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be but it certainly struggles to top out now! I do like the improved top speed of 85+ now!

Yep, just don’t take it to the Rockies, unless you want to put your 28’s back on or do an IGR in the sub trans.... steep rocky climbs at elevation is causing me grief already. Can’t imagine 32’s....🤷‍♂️

 

[Nauti1826]

New tune has been great at all elevations. And I live in Colorado and don’t run stock tires. AFR has been spot on. Who wants stock anything????? People always looking to complain about something unreal

 

[Nauti1826]

Yeah would like one, but $6k is overpriced for sure. The Hess heads/cam/tune for less than half the cost of the turbo puts out numbers that are close enough to the turbo with less that could potentially go wrong and no altitude issue. The people living at a higher altitude with issues really turned me off even though I live in the midwest. I plan on couple trips a year out to colorado/wyoming and doing some mountain riding. I would be beyond angry to get there, the talon run like sh1t and wreck the trip. JR/Honda "stand behind their product" and were pretty proud of the turbo until people at altitude started chiming in and then it is crickets chirping on the warranty/issues other than JR does not accept returns.

Turbo works great at elevation with the new tune. Sorry you can’t get a turbo for $1500 like your hoping for.

 

[Montecresto]

New tune has been great at all elevations. And I live in Colorado and don’t run stock tires. AFR has been spot on. Who wants stock anything????? People always looking to complain about something unreal

View attachment 226936 View attachment 226937 View attachment 226938

Well, my personal opinion is that it ought to climb the trails stock, even at elevation. The non turbo RZR’s I’m riding with do. But I’m certainly not dogging on the Talon, I’d just like to get an IGR installed in the ST, if/when one becomes available.

It sounds like you have the turbo installed and had some sort of tuning performed to overcome the Talons difficulty in steep rocky terrain at elevations???

 

[Montecresto]

The Hess heads/cam/tune for less than half the cost of the turbo puts out numbers that are close enough to the turbo with less that could potentially go wrong and no altitude issue.

Would you mind elaborating on this “tune” and how one obtains it? Thank you

 

[PaulF]

Well, my personal opinion is that it ought to climb the trails stock, even at elevation. The non turbo RZR’s I’m riding with do. But I’m certainly not dogging on the Talon, I’d just like to get an IGR installed in the ST, if/when one becomes available.

It sounds like you have the turbo installed and had some sort of tuning performed to overcome the Talons difficulty in steep rocky terrain at elevations???

This post has me confused. I regularly ride at 10,000+ feet and once I figured out my Talon, I have never had any problems climbing anything because of lack of power (traction is a different story). My Talon has surprised me on several occasions but only in manual mode. Automatic has left me stalled out when climbing and especially in anything slippery like lose rock or sand, it seems to confuse the transmission programming and upshift at the worse possible moment. If I am approaching anything that looks like it might confuse the DCT, I switch to manual.

Would you mind elaborating on this “tune” and how one obtains it? Thank you

You can find the Hess tunes here Dynojet Power Vision 3 BUT DON'T BOTHER. Tunes do not do anything at high altitude because the Talon has issues with non-stock tunes and will run rich and will not gain any power and may even lose power and/or fuel economy. I personally asked Hess many questions about his tunes but he went silent when I brought up the high altitude issues. No one but Jackson has figured out that problem and they only deal with the turbo models.

Hess also sells a cam/head/tune upgrade here Naturally Aspirated Stage 2 Engine Performance Packages- Honda Talon 1000, but you lose lower end power so it would be useless for trail riding, climbing and rock crawling and may suffer from the high altitude tune issues that other tunes experience.

 

[Montecresto]

This post has me confused. I regularly ride at 10,000+ feet and once I figured out my Talon, I have never had any problems climbing anything because of lack of power (traction is a different story). My Talon has surprised me on several occasions but only in manual mode. Automatic has left me stalled out when climbing and especially in anything slippery like lose rock or sand, it seems to confuse the transmission programming and upshift at the worse possible moment. If I am approaching anything that looks like it might confuse the DCT, I switch to manual.

I can only say that the trails I’m climbing in the northern New Mexico Rockies are far more rugged and steeper than anything I’ve rode in Colorado, Idaho and Montana at similar elevations. This is why I’m after an IGR for the ST as I don’t want to damage my clutches. I’ll also point out that I’m in an X4, often with four large adults and about 200 pounds of gear.

 

[Montecresto]

You can find the Hess tunes here Dynojet Power Vision 3 BUT DON'T BOTHER. Tunes do not do anything at high altitude because the Talon has issues with non-stock tunes and will run rich and will not gain any power and may even lose power and/or fuel economy. I personally asked Hess many questions about his tunes but he went silent when I brought up the high altitude issues. No one but Jackson has figured out that problem and they only deal with the turbo models.

Hess also sells a cam/head/tune upgrade here Naturally Aspirated Stage 2 Engine Performance Packages- Honda Talon 1000, but you lose lower end power so it would be useless for trail riding, climbing and rock crawling and may suffer from the high altitude tune issues that other tunes experience.

Well, thanks for that disappointing education...

 

[PaulF]

I’ll also point out that I’m in an X4, often with four large adults and about 200 pounds of gear.

That explains it. You are about 800-1000 pounds heavier than me. I mainly ride solo with little gear but I do run 30's. Don't get me wrong, I also want some sort of IGR and 32's but haven't decided which IGR to go with.

Well, thanks for that disappointing education...

Your welcome, I just saved you thousands of dollars, much of it already at my expense, experience and hours of testing

Also, don't bother with any exhaust systems unless you want to make noise and spend time repacking the ones with batting in them. The stock exhaust dynos out near as good (within a couple of HP's) as any aftermarket exhaust up to about 170 HP.

 

[HondaTech]

Yeah would like one, but $6k is overpriced for sure. The Hess heads/cam/tune for less than half the cost of the turbo puts out numbers that are close enough to the turbo with less that could potentially go wrong and no altitude issue. The people living at a higher altitude with issues really turned me off even though I live in the midwest. I plan on couple trips a year out to colorado/wyoming and doing some mountain riding. I would be beyond angry to get there, the talon run like sh1t and wreck the trip. JR/Honda "stand behind their product" and were pretty proud of the turbo until people at altitude started chiming in and then it is crickets chirping on the warranty/issues other than JR does not accept returns.

We just installed a Hess head/cam package on a customer's unit and it does run amazing. The shifts are crisp and very quick. Running it against my bosses JR turbo he could pull the N/A car in a longer stretch than our parking lot will allow. The Hess car pulled hard from the hole but was losing gap.

However the cost is closer to a turbo if you do the entire thing (tune, cam, porting, pistons,etc.) With the HMF exhaust our customer has he's closer to $5k with labor and the PV3. I agree for longevity its probably better, but its not as large a gap in pricing that you'd think.

 

[PaulF]

We just installed a Hess head/cam package on a customer's unit and it does run amazing. The shifts are crisp and very quick. Running it against my bosses JR turbo he could pull the N/A car in a longer stretch than our parking lot will allow. The Hess car pulled hard from the hole but was losing gap.

However the cost is closer to a turbo if you do the entire thing (tune, cam, porting, pistons,etc.) With the HMF exhaust our customer has he's closer to $5k with labor and the PV3. I agree for longevity its probably better, but its not as large a gap in pricing that you'd think.

How much of that 5K was Labor?

 

[HondaTech]

How much of that 5K was Labor?

I would like to also point out some issues we enocuntered.

Head/cam return took almost a month instead of the week they said it would.
The current cam they are using did not require new springs and retainers (not sure if customers bill was lowered to reflect)
They claimed it did not need heads studs without a turbo (suppose to be included in the price customer was given, again I don't know if they dropped the price to reflect the change)
The head was suppose to ready to bolt on, but they didn't shim the intake valves for clearance, so that took added time as well. Also no included info on valve clearance (we shimmed/adjusted to stock) Also one original shim was missing
No head gasket included (again was suppose to be included in the price)
Mixed up our head with a new head someone else shipped (even though we placed a copy of the P.O in the box with our and customers name on the invoice)

The porting and cam looked great and the unit ran amazing, but their customer service and communication sucked. Which is typical of small companies who havent sold stuff to the publice for very long.

In contrast, RaceCoUSA has been pretty good about getting back to my GM with any questions and orders he's placed.

I would suggest if you plan on getting the Hess upgrade done, then make sure your getting everything they stated. Because with the upgraded retainers, springs, head studs, and pistons the package is over $3K. I don't believe this includes a PV3 either, their just emailing you the tune for the head/cam upgrade. So add another $400 for that and you can't use it on any other machine unles you pay DynoJet more money for each additonal vehicle. Plus the HMF exhaust they recommend for another $900 and your in turbo territory.