Brookhaven Honda as a few on the floor ready to go but no Talons to go with it.
Brookhaven Honda as a few on the floor ready to go but no Talons to go with it.
My dealer has a bunch too and they are pretty conservative when it comes to stock orders. At first, they couldn't keep them in stock and now they can't sell them. Personally, I think they are a couple thousand overpriced and it appears others are starting to think the same.
When they figure out how to make them run right at high altitude, accept an S&B and they lower the price a bit, I will get one.
When they figure out how to make them run right at high altitude, accept an S&B and they lower the price a bit, I will get one.
Alan aka Davinci
Mr. Meme Master
Lifetime Member
Make them throw in a whistle tip.
Hondoman
Fundamentals are the crutch for the talentless.
Lifetime Member
T
Yeah would like one, but $6k is overpriced for sure. The Hess heads/cam/tune for less than half the cost of the turbo puts out numbers that are close enough to the turbo with less that could potentially go wrong and no altitude issue. The people living at a higher altitude with issues really turned me off even though I live in the midwest. I plan on couple trips a year out to colorado/wyoming and doing some mountain riding. I would be beyond angry to get there, the talon run like sh1t and wreck the trip. JR/Honda "stand behind their product" and were pretty proud of the turbo until people at altitude started chiming in and then it is crickets chirping on the warranty/issues other than JR does not accept returns.
The altitude issue affects all Talons, it is just exaggerated with the Turbo because it runs richer than N/A. I asked Hess if they were aware of the altitude issues and what they have done to correct them and got the same "cricket" response. I have been doing some testing and think I found the MAP sensor to be the problem (at least on my machine). At 5000 feet it is reading a BARO in the 28 range and it should only be in the 25 range at that altitude. ECU feeds too much fuel as the altitude increases because the MAP/Baro pressure is wrong. The ECU doesn't know any better.
This renders all the tunes done at sea level useless at my altitude but more troubling is that a tune done correctly at 5000 feet becomes leaner as the altitude decreases (my custom tune at 5000 feet started running lean at 3000 feet at Sand Hollow) and will most likely run dangerously lean at sea level. UGH!!!
Stock Talons are supposed to run lean but at 5000 feet on the stock tune, mine runs in the mid 13:1 and that is not lean. Custom tunes (targeted at 12.5:1) run at 11:1 up here. The Turbo runs in the 11.5:1 at sea level and I have seen reports it running in the 9:1 range at higher altitudes and start to misfire at that AFR. Everything I have seen runs richer as the altitude increases.
Maybe this accounts for the vast differences in reported mileage that people are getting, who knows.
I have tried to contact JR twice about this and like you said... "crickets". I thought they would be interested in what I discovered but they are not so, no turbo for me.
Oscar, if you are still on these forums, there are answers to the "why does the Talon Turbo run rich at high altitude" questions. Are you listening???
I do want a Turbo on my Talon and I do plan on getting one when possible. My hope is that the price does come down. If it was a lower price I would already have one as I have Turbo'd almost everything I have owned!) So hopefully time will bring the price down and the tuning will get better!! But Yamaha and Honda do have there turbo kits in the same ball park though....a GYTR turbo for my YXZ is $5499.99.
But Yamaha aftermarket has lots of less expensive turbo kits. I wonder how the Silber Turbo kit is doing on the Talon and how it is at altitude? Its $3999 but I think with no intercooler yet. So not as much HP as the Jackson Turbo but I think they have an intercooler they are working on.
But Yamaha aftermarket has lots of less expensive turbo kits. I wonder how the Silber Turbo kit is doing on the Talon and how it is at altitude? Its $3999 but I think with no intercooler yet. So not as much HP as the Jackson Turbo but I think they have an intercooler they are working on.
I use a DynoJet PV3 and a DynoJet Wideband CX. These connect together and will log 30 outputs.
Without actual equipment to log the AFR's, you may not notice anything with the stock tune because the stock tune is actually a little lean at sea level so if your machine is doing to the AFR's what mine is, the AFR becomes fairly decent at 5000 feet and still runs pretty normal. For you to actually "feel" the engine running rich, you would have to be below 11:1 and my stock tune has never been that low. One of my custom tunes (that was done at or near sea level) is in the low 11:1 range and at higher altitudes it starts and runs like crap.
Indications that you might be experience what I do is the following (with a stock tune)...
- Below average fuel mileage during normal trail riding. Stock, these machines should get a little over 20, I get around 16-18. The higher altitude I go, the worse the mileage.
- Hard hot restarts and fuel load up. This also gets much worse as altitude increases. At 10,000 feet, my machine can flood on restarts and runs pretty bad for 5 to 15 seconds. Sometimes dies after restart if I don't rev it a little. Acts like it has a carb and should start and run a lot better than this being fuel injected. The higher and hotter it is, the worse it does this. My machine has done this since day one, i thought it was normal until I started logging AFR's. I have yet to log AFR at 10,000 feet (too much snow) but plan on it in the next couple weeks.
- Seems to run "different" at lower altitudes. More power is obvious but #1 and #2 above are less noticeable. For instance, at Sand Hollow (about 3000 feet) my Talon starts and runs great and never did the "load up" problem even once in 5 days. The AFR's started getting on the lean side there and I was getting better mileage. Granted, the mileage calculation need more that 5 days to even out but it was a calculable increase. 20 mpg for the whole trip and that was on a a diverse mixture of asphalt, trail, dunes and rock crawling.
CID
Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Geebuz, FI is supposed to prevent ALL those things.
(filed in the no s***, Sherlock file)Most of my riding coming up (also waiting for snow to melt) will be over 9k feet so I'll be watching for flooding symptoms.
advertisement
Properly tuned FI maps with properly working inputs does in fact drastically reduce (if not eliminate) all those things. You can't account for everything different from the dyno run used to create the initial maps but you can get VERY close.Geebuz, FI is supposed to prevent ALL those things.
Most of my riding coming up (also waiting for snow to melt) will be over 9k feet so I'll be watching for flooding symptoms.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the MAP sensor on my machine is the culprit. It is logging what appears to be the wrong value (~28.5 inHg at 5,000 feet instead of ~25 like it should be). If that is true then the ECU thinks I am at around 1,500 feet and therefore pumps in the fuel required for 1,500 feet and that is about 10% too much for 5,000 feet.
When I go to the 10,000 foot level, the pressure logged should be in the 21 range but if my theory holds true, I will see pressures getting logged at around 26 range. If so, time to start looking at MAP sensors. If not, then back to the drawing board
.Also forgot to mention that the hard hot restarts is most noticeable after I pull a hill under some load, shut down and then try to restart after a few minutes. Like pull a good hill, get to the top, stop to take a 2-4 minute break (if you know what I mean) and then get back in and fire it up. If I try this at 7,000+ feet, it will most certainly load up and die if I don't rev it to clean it out.
F
I do have the occasional hot restart issue, likely at a variety of elevations in the 5k to 10k range. The issue seems like heat soak in my case, with a low idle and occasionally an extra crank or two on the motor before it catches. Very rarely it dies, but starts right back up. I've had similar issues with Jeeps and other brands where a hot restart has some vaporized fuel to work through the supply line initially. The Talon always runs fine after these first few occasional stumbles. I get 20 to 25 MPG, but I tend to shift up to next higher gear when tooling down the trail to keep RPMs & droning noise down. (Gotta love that transmission!) I run up to the 50MPH speed limit on roads to trails, 40-45MPH on gravel roads, and 30-35MPH on the wider FS & BLM trails; I'm not flooring it like a dirt bike race, but not idling along either.
I see you're in Utah also, but I'm guessing up north if still concerned about high elevation snow. If your equipment can easily swap over, I'd be happy to meet up for some comparative analysis if you thought it would be worth the effort.
I see you're in Utah also, but I'm guessing up north if still concerned about high elevation snow. If your equipment can easily swap over, I'd be happy to meet up for some comparative analysis if you thought it would be worth the effort.
Hot restart is basically eliminated for me with a custom test tune done here at this altitude. I "fooled/zeroed" (as if it was tuned at 5000 feet) the baro compensation and fuel tables to compensate for the wrong baro readings I was getting and adjusted the cranking tables so they are not 100% fuel on restart as a test and it proved (to me on my machine anyway) there is something wrong with the barometric reading and/or compensation on my Talon. With all the ramblings of others (especially turbo machines) of running rich, I believe there is something amiss with the Talons tune and/or electronics and I intend to get to the bottom of it.
If the hard restarts were heat soak, I do not believe the elevation would make a difference. It would do that an any altitude. After looking at the compensation tables in the tune, it is obvious that the Talon gives full fuel on cranking regardless of altitude (not sure why they did that). This probably works fine under 5000 feet, it does not above 5000. Top number is baro pressure, bottom is fuel multiplier during cranking. This translates to full fuel during cranking regardless of altitude. This has a tenancy to over fuel the higher you get and if cranking longer than a second above 5000 feet, it floods the engine a little...
If I match the other compensation factors that Honda used on the Alpha-N and Speed Density tables (which I think are strange and don't agree with but that is another story), it stops flooding/loading up. Not sure if they missed this or did it on purpose...
I am in the Salt Lake area and the snow looks to have receded to the 11,000-12,000 foot range so I am going out this weekend and will be testing in the 8,000 to 10,000 range if I can get that high. As far as swapping equipment, DynoJet makes that near impossible. The tuner is locked to my VIN so it can only be moved with the purchase of a new license.
I do have a stand-alone wideband but that would entail you having a larger bung welded in to your exhaust (Honda used a tiny O2 sensor) and would only log AFR and nothing else. Not much use without other data points in my opinion.
What area are you located and where do you normally ride?
F
Good luck getting out this weekend, looks like it should be nice weather for you. Since I'm not experiencing the elevation related issues as seriously as you are, I don't think I need to add the AFR probe.
I mostly ride all over Iron County near Cedar City. I haven't loaded it up on the trailer to head for new places yet, instead, I'm trying to find routes I can take the Talon on to get to fun spots like the north rim. Yesterday, I scouted a route through Grand Staircase-Escalante while in my Jeep, but I didn't have time to check south of US 89.
I mostly ride all over Iron County near Cedar City. I haven't loaded it up on the trailer to head for new places yet, instead, I'm trying to find routes I can take the Talon on to get to fun spots like the north rim. Yesterday, I scouted a route through Grand Staircase-Escalante while in my Jeep, but I didn't have time to check south of US 89.
We have released a firmware update (1.0.5) with much improved drivability and altitude compensation. This was a long process that took some time on our end to get right and test. We thought we had this solved pre-release from our tests, but apparently not and the over rich condition above 5000ft still existed. With this fix, all should be correct now.
We understand the frustration, trust me, it frustrated us too. Hopefully this eases some of the concerns on our kit and our ability to get this dialed in. We appreciate the support and patience of our dealers/customers throughout this.
@PaulF - It was great speaking with you via phone to discuss your NA vehicle experience. Unfortunately I do not have experience with the Dynojet PV3, but it was fun to brainstorm with you.
-Oscar Jr.
We understand the frustration, trust me, it frustrated us too. Hopefully this eases some of the concerns on our kit and our ability to get this dialed in. We appreciate the support and patience of our dealers/customers throughout this.
@PaulF - It was great speaking with you via phone to discuss your NA vehicle experience. Unfortunately I do not have experience with the Dynojet PV3, but it was fun to brainstorm with you.
-Oscar Jr.
Smitty335
Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
You didn't get the oxygen bottle with yours? HA! I bought a 16 P1, took three years for Honda to get most of the bugs worked out, never buy a first or second year S X S, I learned the hard way unless you live around the block from the dealer, I've had it one year without hauling it back to the dealer after 4 or 5 short rides. Most were covered by recalls, but still yet thats excessive, at least they covered the recalls! You shouldn't have to do the Turbo, A arms, tires and wheels and shock rebuilds for a trail rig, only thing I didn't do was the Trubo on the P1, spent a fortune on the P1 just to have a decent UTV. Honda needs to step up there game, there quite capable, there just too money hungry. The Kawasaki KRX may change their minds! But I'm into rock crawling and fast trail ridding, not the dunes or racing. The KRX is built to last in those environments! I will keep the P1 for yard work with the Turf mode and chores for years, I will make a better decision on the next purchase for trail riding, unless Honda picks ups it game a lot, will have a KRX for trail riding, Bead locks, good suspension, heavy duty A arms and mounts, that adds up to $ 4,138.58 on top of what Honda what's for a Talon? No thank you!
Last edited:
CID
Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
I rode yesterday and paid more attention to my hot starts after short stops, one or two pics or watering the flora. Trailered to 8500 ft. and rode up to 11,200 ish feet. Sure enough, yours isn't the only Talon with confused FI settings as hot starts were 'troubled'. Bad enough that when my dealer called today (about my back ordered left front diff. seal), I told the service department I wanted to be in on the class action suit against Honda for their poor FI settings for altitude (I was polite and jovial about it) but I made it clear that Honda has a problem that needs fixing. I offered that they (the dealer) might already know about it and how to fix it - the caller was just the front man (woman) for service and said someone with more authority would call me before they went home, up to 7pm, it's 6:55 right now.
I'm an old school carb guy and don't know squat about FI or custom tunes - other than Fleetwood Mac and Bob Seger.
Smitty335
Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
HELL NO! NO TURBO! race teams are the only ones that pay that much attention to the engine vitals. I'm kind of like the all Black section of Blazing Saddles, Ride MFS Ride! No gauges for me! HA! Was played by a Black man!I rode yesterday and paid more attention to my hot starts after short stops, one or two pics or watering the flora. Trailered to 8500 ft. and rode up to 11,200 ish feet. Sure enough, yours isn't the only Talon with confused FI settings as hot starts were 'troubled'. Bad enough that when my dealer called today (about my back ordered left front diff. seal), I told the service department I wanted to be in on the class action suit against Honda for their poor FI settings for altitude (I was polite and jovial about it) but I made it clear that Honda has a problem that needs fixing. I offered that they (the dealer) might already know about it and how to fix it - the caller was just the front man (woman) for service and said someone with more authority would call me before they went home, up to 7pm, it's 6:55 right now.
I'm an old school carb guy and don't know squat about FI or custom tunes - other than Fleetwood Mac and Bob Seger.
Last edited:
Thanks for getting to the bottom of the altitude issue, I am most certain all the Turbo owners out there appreciate your ongoing efforts.
You calling me was completely unexpected and I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me and explain what you discovered. If only your fix could somehow get "back-ported" to the N/A machines but that is probably just wishful thinking.
P.S. I spoke to the GM at my dealership and he agreed to take us up on "my" offer any time you are ready
!
My emails and conversation with Oscar finally shed some light on the reason why the Talon tends to run rich at higher altitudes. It is subtle on the N/A motors but can be very noticeable on the Turbos. It is rather complex and has to do with the back end of the ECU. It cannot be corrected with the available tables and there is really nothing that can be done with a basic tuner. There is something in the base code of the ECU and that needs to be fixed by mother Honda. Jackson has the ability to crack the back end and has fixed it in their latest firmware but Jackson only deals with Turbo models. Maybe one of the other tuners like Hess, PwrTune or even DynoJet can come up with something, we will just have to wait and see.I rode yesterday and paid more attention to my hot starts after short stops, one or two pics or watering the flora. Trailered to 8500 ft. and rode up to 11,200 ish feet. Sure enough, yours isn't the only Talon with confused FI settings as hot starts were 'troubled'. Bad enough that when my dealer called today (about my back ordered left front diff. seal), I told the service department I wanted to be in on the class action suit against Honda for their poor FI settings for altitude (I was polite and jovial about it) but I made it clear that Honda has a problem that needs fixing. I offered that they (the dealer) might already know about it and how to fix it - the caller was just the front man (woman) for service and said someone with more authority would call me before they went home, up to 7pm, it's 6:55 right now.
I'm an old school carb guy and don't know squat about FI or custom tunes - other than Fleetwood Mac and Bob Seger.
This issue is so vague and complex, your dealer will look like a "dear in the headlights" if you try to discuss it with them. I doubt any of them know the inner working of an ECU, let alone how to build a flash and then apply that flash to the ECU to correct this issue. It just isn't going to happen unless mother Honda gets involved.
advertisement
