Tankless Hot Water Heater w/ Well water and pressure tank???

[Hondasxs]

Need some @Plumber32 help from someone who is not too @Smitty335.

Its time to start looking at upgrading our hot water heater. Needs to be bigger. The current one is a 2 shower max. Its a short fat tank. I don't remember size.

Anyways. Been looking at tankless heaters but been told this might not be a good idea on well water as the temp rise window is too large.

Do tankless save money long run. I know upfront cost is there but would it give unlimited hot water?
I was looking at electric or outside mounted propane.

Also,
I need to replace the well expansion tank next week. Blatter is busted. Along with new gages.
Any pointers? Its an older coper system.

Thanks.

 

[Admin]

 

[Smitty335]

Need some @Plumber32 help from someone who is not too @Smitty335.

Its time to start looking at upgrading our hot water heater. Needs to be bigger. The current one is a 2 shower max. Its a short fat tank. I don't remember size.

Anyways. Been looking at tankless heaters but been told this might not be a good idea on well water as the temp rise window is too large.

Do tankless save money long run. I know upfront cost is there but would it give unlimited hot water?
I was looking at electric or outside mounted propane.

Also,
I need to replace the well expansion tank next week. Blatter is busted. Along with new gages.
Any pointers? Its an older coper system.

Thanks.

Stay away from electric whole house, go with Rinnai Senci propane unit, unless you have recirk system no need for the expansion tank, call me, I know tankless!

 

[ohanacreek]

Water Softener will help buildup if you have hard water.

Smitty is right propane is better.

 

[ohanacreek]

Stay away from electric whole house, go with Rinnai Senci propane unit, unless you have recirk system no need for the expansion tank, call me, I know tankless!

I think he means the well pressure tank

 

[Hondasxs]

I think he means the well pressure tank

Yes, Well pressure tank.

But, will cost of propane be more/less than a larger tank hot water heater?

 

[Hondasxs]

I was looking at Rinnai Senci propane units. I forget which one.
Outdoor model.

 

[NTCPrezJB]

I'm just here to see the pro's answer on this one.

 

[sharp]

I have a tankless and love it. It takes some getting used to with the delay when adjusting the temperature in the shower, but when you get the temperature you want that's where it will stay. I also have a hot and cold, frost free water faucets out side. I'll get some pictures later

 

[Hondasxs]

I have a tankless and love it. It takes some getting used to with the delay when adjusting the temperature in the shower, but when you get the temperature you want that's where it will stay. I also have a hot and cold, frost free water faucets outside. I'll get some pictures later

Ya, I read about a delay, But ours now is fairly long now.
We usually tank showers back to back so only the first one would see the wait. Correct?

 

[Smitty335]

Water Softener will help buildup if you have hard water.

Smitty is right propane is better.

All tankless should have a flush system installed on them, Rinnai comes with one, per my request at a regional Rinnai meeting. After I yanked my tank out, Im saving 40 percent on propane, but I had a 75 gallon tank?

Yes, Well pressure tank.

But, will cost of propane be more/less than a larger tank hot water heater?

In the long run hell yes! Saving 500 gallons of propane a year at $ 1.60 per gallon in the summer, $ 800.00 a year. I can go summer to summer now on 800 gallons and got more hot water than ever. The Rinnai has a Wi Fi controller that you can use to mess with your wife when she showering and your not home! You can set run time/ temp for kids. HA!

 

[ohanacreek]

Yes, Well pressure tank.

But, will cost of propane be more/less than a larger tank hot water heater?

Need to look at how YOU use it, what your energy per kw or per gallon of LP costs and how much each option uses for the models your looking at. Might not be a large difference in energy cost but you might see a huge difference in install cost.

Most of the propane units are really efficient, I am installing a LP On demand in the shop since theres no reason to maintain the temp in a tank out there.

You may have to install (3)40amp 240v circuits for a large electric on demand, usually about $500-1000 per circuit with a licensed electrician. They can draw over 100amps easy, theres no genset at HomeDepot that can run one of those.

If you're stuck with Electric look at a HeatPump water heater they can run as low as 500watts and use about 3kw to heat 80 gallons in 3hours or they can run at full blast at @6000watts and use 6kw to heat the same 80gallons in one hour if you have more demand. More expensive but good ROI on energy costs if you aren't moving in next 5 years. We have an 80gallon HP and keep it in the 500w HeatPump mode instead of Hybrid, we will kick it to High Demand mode (6000w) via wifi enabled app when we have company staying. Never run out of hot water. Downside is its TALL compared to a standard Electric and requires air circulation so you can't trap it in a small closet.

 

[Smitty335]

Need to look at how YOU use it, what your energy per kw or per gallon of LP costs and how much each option uses for the models your looking at. Might not be a large difference in energy cost but you might see a huge difference in install cost.

Most of the propane units are really efficient, I am installing a LP On demand in the shop since theres no reason to maintain the temp in a tank out there.

You may have to install (3)40amp 240v circuits for a large electric on demand, usually about $500-1000 per circuit with a licensed electrician. They can draw over 100amps easy, theres no genset at HomeDepot that can run one of those.

If you're stuck with Electric look at a HeatPump water heater they can run as low as 500watts and use about 3kw to heat 80 gallons in 3hours or they can run at full blast at @6000watts and use 6kw to heat the same 80gallons in one hour if you have more demand. More expensive but good ROI on energy costs if you aren't moving in next 5 years. We have an 80gallon HP and keep it in the 500w HeatPump mode instead of Hybrid, we will kick it to High Demand mode (6000w) when we have company staying. Never run out of hot water. Downside is its TALL compared to a standard Electric and requires air circulation so you can't trap it in a small closet.

Another thing to consider is the cost per SQ foot of a home, a 40 gallon usually requires a 3 x 3 room or space, multiply that by let's say $ 100.00 per sq foot= $ 900.00 dollars of the cost of a home, which isn't much in the grand scheme, but it's space that could be utilized for other things. The average life span of a tank water heater is 13 years if your not on a well

 

[sharp]

Ya, I read about a delay, But ours now is fairly long now.
We usually tank showers back to back so only the first one would see the wait. Correct?

For example the delay I'm talking about is if you get in the shower and it's too cold so you adjust it warmer but it's too warm so then you turn it back down a little to get the right temperature, there will be a "lag" in temp change. The farther away the shower or sink is from the tank the longer the lag to get the temperature to where you like it. Basically get in the shower if it's too cold turn it up wait about 2 minutes for the temperature to be true if it's too hot turn it down wait about a minute for it to get to the true temperature

 

[Smitty335]

I was looking at Rinnai Senci propane units. I forget which one.
Outdoor model.

Unless you live in a climate that dosen't have but two or three nights a year below 32, go with a indoor unit. Send me some pictures of your water heater and a hand drawn plan of your home N/T/S. I like to install them on an out side wall, that way they vent through the wall and do away with a roof penetration.

 

[sharp]

Another way to save gas is to have a separate handle for hot and cold, at least in the bathroom sinks, If you have a faucet with a one handle lever that you move from side to side for temperature and the handle is not moved all the way to the cold side, the tank will sense the water moving and will kick on to start heating the water even if your just washing your hands for a few seconds.

 

[Smitty335]

For example the delay I'm talking about is if you get in the shower and it's too cold so you adjust it warmer but it's too warm so then you turn it back down a little to get the right temperature, there will be a "lag" in temp change. The farther away the shower or sink is from the tank the longer the lag to get the temperature to where you like it. Basically get in the shower if it's too cold turn it up wait about 2 minutes for the temperature to be true if it's too hot turn it down wait about a minute for it to get to the true temperature

That's the Lowes units and other box store units. The Bosch Lowes units that Lowes spec out had a +/- of 5 degrees = 10 degree swing, the cure for it was to put a 6 gallon electric water heater down stream from the tankless and have a buffer tank to control the temp swings. That is called the sandwich effect. I spent 3 days at a Bosch training facility in NH, after that, I was done with Bosch, the control board in a Bosch is like $ 1,000.00, Rinnai $ 200.00.

 

[sharp]

That's the Lowes units and other box store units. The Bosch Lowes units that Lowes spec out had a +/- of 5 degrees = 10 degree swing, the cure for it was to put a 6 gallon electric water heater down stream from the tankless and have a buffer tank to control the temp swings. That is called the sandwich effect. I spent 3 days at a Bosch training facility in NH, after that, I was done with Bosch, the control board in a Bosch is like $ 1,000.00, Rinnai $ 200.00.

Mine is not from any big box store. I'll get the name when I get home. It runs off natural gas.

 

[Smitty335]

Another way to save gas is to have a separate handle for hot and cold, at least in the bathrooms, If you have a faucet with a one handle lever that you move from side to side for temperature and the handle is not moved all the way to the cold side, the tank will sense the water moving and will kick on to start heating the water even if your just washing your hands for a few seconds.

Good point! But it takes .2 gallons per minute to activate the new heaters, lav aerators are around 1.25 GPM, I'm tired of plumbing, you do the math! Can we please talk about something I don't know beans about, Like Trail Maps Tab A, HA!

 

[Smitty335]

Mine is not from any big box store. I'll get the name when I get home. It runs off natural gas.

Yea let me know, may be able to help you out. Hope it's not a Tagia

 

[Smitty335]

For example the delay I'm talking about is if you get in the shower and it's too cold so you adjust it warmer but it's too warm so then you turn it back down a little to get the right temperature, there will be a "lag" in temp change. The farther away the shower or sink is from the tank the longer the lag to get the temperature to where you like it. Basically get in the shower if it's too cold turn it up wait about 2 minutes for the temperature to be true if it's too hot turn it down wait about a minute for it to get to the true temperature

Start by cleaning your thermistors with an eraser, And flush heater for 45 min with white vinegar, works wonders!