snuffnwhisky
Village Idiot
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Thanks for the measurement. Looking at that, I doubt there is enough threads to add any spacers by the time you factor in the thickness of the lock ring and the depth at where the full threads start in the rack. There doesn't appear to be any threads until until after the lock tab notches and even if there were, we shouldn't count them because they are not 360 degrees...
So, only options appear to be to change out the entire steering gear box (UGH!), or come up with some modified inner tie rod ends.
Time to break out the lathe
Sheetmetalfab
Liberal kryptonite. truth and logic….
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Thanks for the measurement. Looking at that, I doubt there is enough threads to add any spacers by the time you factor in the thickness of the lock ring and the depth at where the full threads start in the rack. There doesn't appear to be any threads until until after the lock tab notches and even if there were, we shouldn't count them because they are not 360 degrees...
View attachment 178493
So, only options appear to be to change out the entire steering gear box (UGH!), or come up with some modified inner tie rod ends.
Time to break out the lathe
personally,
I would spend $217 long before permanently modifying / potentially compromising any steering gear part strength.
and I have a lathe / milling machine in my garage.
that’s just me.
I think you misunderstood me here. I thought this thread was more of a talk about discovery, not actually permanently modifying a machine, until it is figured out. None of us know exactly how far the outer CV and the rest of the R suspension can be pushed and I read this thread as total experimentation.
I am totally with you on this and I would never put anything modified like that on any machine for anything other than measuring, testing and determining the maximum amount (if any) of extra turning angle an outer CV on an R could be pushed to.
I think it would be a total waste to spend $200+ on a rack and half a day to install just to find out the R is already at its max and then just putting back most of the movement in spacers that restrict it back to almost stock. I was thinking more like spending $30 on an inner tie rod end and machining off 1 mm at a time, removing the shock and articulating the full suspension at full lock to see just how much it will take before it reaches 47 to 50 degrees and just how much before it starts to bind.
Better yet (now that I have thought about it) I will just add 1 mm washers on the inner tie rod end (there is enough threads to experiment) and get the same results without any machining or cost of a tie rod end.
This will give everyone a good idea on just how much you can increase the turning angle without spending any money. R&D at its cheapest
Then if it is found that you can in fact increase the turning angle the entire (or near the entire) amount that an X rack provides it will be well worth $200+ and an afternoon of fun swapping it over.
I think you misunderstood me here. I thought this thread was more of a talk about discovery, not actually permanently modifying a machine, until it is figured out. None of us know exactly how far the outer CV and the rest of the R suspension can be pushed and I read this thread as total experimentation.
I am totally with you on this and I would never put anything modified like that on any machine for anything other than measuring, testing and determining the maximum amount (if any) of extra turning angle an outer CV on an R could be pushed to.
I think it would be a total waste to spend $200+ on a rack and half a day to install just to find out the R is already at its max and then just putting back most of the movement in spacers that restrict it back to almost stock. I was thinking more like spending $30 on an inner tie rod end and machining off 1 mm at a time, removing the shock and articulating the full suspension at full lock to see just how much it will take before it reaches 47 to 50 degrees and just how much before it starts to bind.
Better yet (now that I have thought about it) I will just add 1 mm washers on the inner tie rod end (there is enough threads to experiment) and get the same results without any machining or cost of a tie rod end.
This will give everyone a good idea on just how much you can increase the turning angle without spending any money. R&D at its cheapest
Then if it is found that you can in fact increase the turning angle the entire (or near the entire) amount that an X rack provides it will be well worth $200+ and an afternoon of fun swapping it over.
No need to do all that. Just Jack the front up, unbolt tie rod and see how much farther you can turn the knuckle before the cv binds. Obviously you don't want to be right at cv bind.
Well, kind of. That would work if everything was straight but we are dealing with some pretty acute (and multiple) angles here, especially when the suspension is full articulated and the CV angle is at its most critical. For instance, moving the tie rod 1 mm shorter will not be the same as moving the inner tie rod end into the rack by 1 mm...
Now this could all be figured out by the angles but measuring the angles it tough on an R because the tie rod angles down AND forward at the same time and the angles change as the suspension changes so the measurements at level will not equal the measurements at full articulation.
Your method could get you close if calculated properly, maybe even close enough for this purpose.
View attachment 178555
I was only talking about checking the angle of the cv. I would focus on that first, then move on to checking if the tie rod ends will handle the angle. I have a feeling the cv is the limitation.
Sorry, I didn't read your post correctly so what I said didn't really address your post.
You are correct and the angle the CV will tolerate is easy to figure out and simple to establish. Measuring the angle of the CV at any given suspension level and turning angle is also fairly easy but I am not talking about either of those measurements. I figured that was a given and I am beyond that point.
What I am talking about is once the maximum CV angle is established, how much can we manipulate the inner tie rod travel to accomplish the maximum allowed CV angle, that is the time consuming part that will require some trial and error. We need to move the inner tie rod end inward a controlled/measured amount so that we can accurately measure the effects on the CV angle at any given suspension level and turning angle and make sure we don't exceed the maximum angle.
Once that amount is established, then someone can set about putting together the correct combination of parts to make it work without breaking anything,
If we had the engineer's drawings, we would have it figured out by now. Short of that, it is going to be move inner tie rod, measure, move inner tie rod, measure, etc until we figure it out. And due to the angles and changing arch of the knuckle, I do not think it is linear. For instance...
1mm inward movement might angle the CV an additional 1 degree but 4mm inward movement might angle the CV an additional 6 degrees. Gonna take some trial and error to get it right.
Or, we could just take a wild guess, hope for the best and maybe break s***
Sorry, I didn't read your post correctly so what I said didn't really address your post.
You are correct and the angle the CV will tolerate is easy to figure out and simple to establish. Measuring the angle of the CV at any given suspension level and turning angle is also fairly easy but I am not talking about either of those measurements. I figured that was a given and I am beyond that point.
What I am talking about is once the maximum CV angle is established, how much can we manipulate the inner tie rod travel to accomplish the maximum allowed CV angle, that is the time consuming part that will require some trial and error. We need to move the inner tie rod end inward a controlled/measured amount so that we can accurately measure the effects on the CV angle at any given suspension level and turning angle and make sure we don't exceed the maximum angle.
Once that amount is established, then someone can set about putting together the correct combination of parts to make it work without breaking anything,
If we had the engineer's drawings, we would have it figured out by now. Short of that, it is going to be move inner tie rod, measure, move inner tie rod, measure, etc until we figure it out. And due to the angles and changing arch of the knuckle, I do not think it is linear. For instance...
1mm inward movement might angle the CV an additional 1 degree but 4mm inward movement might angle the CV an additional 6 degrees. Gonna take some trial and error to get it right.
Or, we could just take a wild guess, hope for the best and maybe break s***
I see what you are saying. I feel like you are overthinking it a little, but I also have broken a lot of parts
I don't think 1 or 4mm is going to make any noticeable changes.
What I'm saying is, jack the thing up and start adjusting those threads out and shortening the tie rod to maintain the correct toe. You don't need washers to just test in the garage. I wouldn't want to loose any thread engagement there anyway.
I think whoever said they ordered a rack for an x is going about it the right way. Yes there is potential to be out the cost of the rack, but at least he has the option to just put his R rack back in and call it failed experiment. It's really the only way to see if it will really work anyway.
Did some extensive measuring this evening and here are my results (someone please double check my work). Keep in mind that most manufacturers say that a fixed CV like the outer one on the Talon is designed to run at a maximum of 47 to 50 degrees. The Talon's CV designed maximum angle in not known.
For these tests I carefully centered my steering and performed the "Turning Radius Inspection" as outlined on page 3-27 of the service manual to make sure the steering was centered before testing. I only tested the left side.
At normal ride height, full left lock, the CV angle is at 39 degrees.
At full extended suspension, full left lock, the CV is at 47 degrees.
At full extended suspension, full left lock PLUS 6 degrees that an X rack should provide, the CV is at 52.5 degrees.
The CV starts to show signs of bind at 54 degrees and is fully bound at 55 degrees.
At full extended suspension, full left lock PLUS 6 degrees, the boot is stressed, the CV clamp only has about 1mm of clearance and the stock wheel just hits the lower control arm at the rear. My aftermarket 15X7 45mm offset wheels also just touch the control arm and I believe that 15X7 50 mm offset wheels will probably bind. In any case, high angle boots with flat style boot clamps should be installed and either 30mm or less offset wheels (or spacers) will be required to gain a little clearance at the control arm. I did not test 14" wheels...
This is not a very good pic but the wheel is just touching the lower control arm...
For my needs, Honda already has the suspension as far as it should go. The occasional slow 48 to 53 degree CV angle might be OK for those that mostly trail ride and just need a little extra turning and rarely hit full suspension extension, but I mostly Dune and Crawl and when duneing, I go full lock full, full extended suspension at higher speeds MANY times during a day's ride so I will be keeping mine stock to maintain the max 47 degree CV angle.
For these tests I carefully centered my steering and performed the "Turning Radius Inspection" as outlined on page 3-27 of the service manual to make sure the steering was centered before testing. I only tested the left side.
At normal ride height, full left lock, the CV angle is at 39 degrees.
At full extended suspension, full left lock, the CV is at 47 degrees.
At full extended suspension, full left lock PLUS 6 degrees that an X rack should provide, the CV is at 52.5 degrees.
The CV starts to show signs of bind at 54 degrees and is fully bound at 55 degrees.
At full extended suspension, full left lock PLUS 6 degrees, the boot is stressed, the CV clamp only has about 1mm of clearance and the stock wheel just hits the lower control arm at the rear. My aftermarket 15X7 45mm offset wheels also just touch the control arm and I believe that 15X7 50 mm offset wheels will probably bind. In any case, high angle boots with flat style boot clamps should be installed and either 30mm or less offset wheels (or spacers) will be required to gain a little clearance at the control arm. I did not test 14" wheels...
This is not a very good pic but the wheel is just touching the lower control arm...
For my needs, Honda already has the suspension as far as it should go. The occasional slow 48 to 53 degree CV angle might be OK for those that mostly trail ride and just need a little extra turning and rarely hit full suspension extension, but I mostly Dune and Crawl and when duneing, I go full lock full, full extended suspension at higher speeds MANY times during a day's ride so I will be keeping mine stock to maintain the max 47 degree CV angle.
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jasond
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Lifetime Member
I received my X model steering gearbox today. The experiment should begin later this week.
From what paulf posted, there isn't a lot of room for more steering at full droop. However, there is a lot to be had at ride height. If one was very aware of the limitations, they could probably limit the full lock steering to only tight maneuvers when the suspension is more or less at ride height.
Pushing a stock cv over 50* isn't going to last long.
Pushing a stock cv over 50* isn't going to last long.
jasond
Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Time to revive this thread and report back with my findings:
I took my time before posting a response so that I could put some real trail miles on and test for issues. I've got 104.6 miles on the X rack with steering stops. Those 104.6 miles were down in Tennessee at the Royal Blue trail system across all trail difficulties with Dragon's Back and Widow Maker being the most difficult terrain. If you aren't familiar with this terrain......I tested the $h!t out of this setup.
I'm happy to report that my mods are working great and the turning radius has noticeably improved. I was not able to use the full rack travel that the X model has, but I was able to reclaim 3/16" of travel on each side of the rack.
3/16" + 3/16" = 3/8" more total usable steering rack travel. It may not sound like a huge improvement, but it was noticeable in switchback mountain trails and I"m satisfied with the return on my investment.
So, without further ado, here's what I did:
Important Note
Photo Comparison of 1000R vs 1000X Steering Gear Boxes:
X gearbox = shiny new part
R gearbox = dirty part
I took my time before posting a response so that I could put some real trail miles on and test for issues. I've got 104.6 miles on the X rack with steering stops. Those 104.6 miles were down in Tennessee at the Royal Blue trail system across all trail difficulties with Dragon's Back and Widow Maker being the most difficult terrain. If you aren't familiar with this terrain......I tested the $h!t out of this setup.
I'm happy to report that my mods are working great and the turning radius has noticeably improved. I was not able to use the full rack travel that the X model has, but I was able to reclaim 3/16" of travel on each side of the rack.
3/16" + 3/16" = 3/8" more total usable steering rack travel. It may not sound like a huge improvement, but it was noticeable in switchback mountain trails and I"m satisfied with the return on my investment.
So, without further ado, here's what I did:
Important Note
- I cannot confirm whether or not this modification will work with stock Talon 1000R lower a-arms. I have L&W Fab high-clearance lower a-arms and they appear to give more clearance for the wheel & tire when the wheel is at full turn/lock. OEM lower a-arms will likely rub the wheel/tire, but I cannot say for sure. Try at your own discretion.
- 53840-HL6-A01 - BOX, STEERING GEAR (Talon X steering gearbox)
- SSK-002 - Steering Stop Kit from SuperATV. I had to call and order this kit. It was not available directly from their website to order. They have a Polaris kit listed that you can order that will not work for this application. The SSK-002 kit is included with the Talon 1000X forward a-arm kit [AA-H-TALX-1.5-HC-02].
Photo Comparison of 1000R vs 1000X Steering Gear Boxes:
X gearbox = shiny new part
R gearbox = dirty part
B
Jason, it's good to hear that you had some success with your experiment! Did you by chance do a before and after measurement of your turning radius?
jasond
Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
That is something I didn’t do. I didn’t have a great way to take quantitative measurements so I can’t provide that kind of data.
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