Talon Talon R Owners - Would You Be Willing to Spend Some Money to Improve Your Turning Radius?

[jasond]

I've been reaching out to a few companies to see if they've got R&D plans for a new rack & pinion/steering box to improve on the Talon R's turning radius.

To clarify: I AM NOT DEVELOPING ANYTHING. I AM NOT A MACHINIST. I AM NOT SELLING ANYTHING. I AM NOT DEBATING WHETHER OR NOT CV AXLE ANGLES WOULD/WOULDN'T WORK GIVEN THE AMOUNT OF DEGREE ANGLES PLACED ON INBOARD/OUTBOARD JOINTS.

I'm merely doing some field research to see if other consumers like me would be willing to fork out the money to improve their turning radius on their R model if a reputable business brought a solution to market.

Based on some questions I've asked; it sounds like Hess Motorsports is currently brainstorming ideas (per Instagram DM response) and RB3 Offroad would consider R&D if they had enough interest from the market (per HondaSxS forum PM conversation).

So my question to the Talon R owners is at the top of this thread.

 

[Admin]

 

[hondabob]

No, the axle joint is at max now with the forward axle angle.

 

[robman]

I'd be interested if they can do it at a reasonable price.

 

[jasond]

I'd be interested if they can do it at a reasonable price.

Quantify "reasonable" if you don't mind.

 

[robman]

Quantify "reasonable" if you don't mind.

I wouldn't pay much more than 1k.

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

The R and X have different part numbers for the steering box.
$217.00

might be that easy.

 

[snuffnwhisky]

The whole rack has different part numbers but all the individual parts inside are all the same part numbers when i looked it up.

 

[jasond]

The whole rack has different part numbers but all the individual parts inside are all the same part numbers when i looked it up.

That’s what has me stumped from where I’ve previously looked. If it were obvious I’d have already bought an X rack and tried one out.

I’m debating just ordering an X rack and being a guinea pig to see if I can find an obvious difference and install it to see how it does.

 

[JACKAL]

I've been reaching out to a few companies to see if they've got R&D plans for a new rack & pinion/steering box to improve on the Talon R's turning radius.

To clarify: I AM NOT DEVELOPING ANYTHING. I AM NOT A MACHINIST. I AM NOT SELLING ANYTHING. I AM NOT DEBATING WHETHER OR NOT CV AXLE ANGLES WOULD/WOULDN'T WORK GIVEN THE AMOUNT OF DEGREE ANGLES PLACED ON INBOARD/OUTBOARD JOINTS.

I'm merely doing some field research to see if other consumers like me would be willing to fork out the money to improve their turning radius on their R model if a reputable business brought a solution to market.

Based on some questions I've asked; it sounds like Hess Motorsports is currently brainstorming ideas (per Instagram DM response) and RB3 Offroad would consider R&D if they had enough interest from the market (per HondaSxS forum PM conversation).

So my question to the Talon R owners is at the top of this thread.

There is a cause and effect for every change made. After an extended range steering rack is fabricated, how do you get around the increased angle on the outside CV joints, will they handle the extra steering angle with full range of motion? Will it clear the wheels or will you have to go to 16-17" wheels? Maybe if RCV axles were offered would you gain added range of motion without blowing out the joint at full lock under power.

https://www.rcvperformance.com/utv.html

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

That’s what has me stumped from where I’ve previously looked. If it were obvious I’d have already bought an X rack and tried one out.

I’m debating just ordering an X rack and being a guinea pig to see if I can find an obvious difference and install it to see how it does.

after close inspection at the dealer side by side.

I believe the difference between the R and X turning radius to be completely attributed to knuckle pivot point location in relation to the steering rack. (Same travel = less turn)

the swept forward A arms make the difference.

 

[Jefferson87]

after close inspection at the dealer side by side.

I believe the difference between the R and X turning radius to be completely attributed to knuckle pivot point location in relation to the steering rack. (Same travel = less turn)

the swept forward A arms make the difference.

So the R has a longer steering arm on the knuckle? Makes sense

Kinda on the same topic, I wouldn't mine sharper steering on my x4. It's not bad, but more is better.

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

So the R has a longer steering arm on the knuckle? Makes sense

Kinda on the same topic, I wouldn't mine sharper steering on my x4. It's not bad, but more is better.

the R steering knuckles are exactly the same part number as the X.

it’s just the steering rack is directly in line with the outer tie rod end on the X while the R outer tie rod end is 2.5-3” forward of the steering rack. (Tie rods angled forward even when straight ahead)

this translates into less steering angle movement at the knuckle with the same amount of steering rack travel.

 

[Jefferson87]

the R steering knuckles are exactly the same part number as the X.

it’s just the steering rack is directly in line with the outer tie rod end on the X while the R outer tie rod end is 2.5-3” forward of the steering rack. (Tie rods angled forward even when straight ahead)

this translates into less steering angle movement at the knuckle with the same amount of steering rack travel.

OK, I get it now.

I knew the moved the knuckle forward, I thought maybe they made the arm on the knuckle longer to line up with the rack, which would also reduce steering angle.

 

[PaulF]

the R steering knuckles are exactly the same part number as the X.

it’s just the steering rack is directly in line with the outer tie rod end on the X while the R outer tie rod end is 2.5-3” forward of the steering rack. (Tie rods angled forward even when straight ahead)

this translates into less steering angle movement at the knuckle with the same amount of steering rack travel.

That is part of it, maybe all of it.

Just a thought here...

The X and the X4 share the same rack, the R is different. The only difference is the complete steering rack. All the internal parts are the same so that means the only difference could be in the housing and you cannot buy that separately.

The steering stops by means of the inner tie rod end hitting the housing so the difference in the housing might be that the the X housing is slightly narrower allowing the inner tie rod ends just slightly more, giving a sharper turn.

Quick and dirty experiment/measurement...

Turn wheel all the way to the LEFT, place tape on top, turn all the way to the RIGHT, where is the tape now?...

I have an R, mine is at about 7 o'clock (maybe a titch more).

Since the rack and pinion have the same teeth, if the X has more travel in the rack, it should turn a little more. Anybody want to try?

 

[snuffnwhisky]

That is part of it, maybe all of it.

Just a thought here...

The X and the X4 share the same rack, the R is different. The only difference is the complete steering rack. All the internal parts are the same so that means the only difference could be in the housing and you cannot buy that separately.

The steering stops by means of the inner tie rod end hitting the housing so the difference in the housing might be that the the X housing is slightly narrower allowing the inner tie rod ends just slightly more, giving a sharper turn.

Quick and dirty experiment/measurement...

Turn wheel all the way to the LEFT, place tape on top, turn all the way to the RIGHT, where is the tape now?...

I have an R, mine is at about 7 o'clock (maybe a titch more).

Since the rack and pinion have the same teeth, if the X has more travel in the rack, it should turn a little more. Anybody want to try?

You are correct, there will be a difference in the rack housing. The manual shows the max wheel angle for both machines and it is 5 degs more on the X vs the R. That being said, if someone swaps racks, full lock on the R is going to put the outer CV at close to a 45 degree angle.

 

[jasond]

@snuffnwhisky 45 degrees would definitely be problematic.

IF I decide to try the X rack I'm going to buy some steering stops from SATV to limit the amount of travel. I got to looking at their Talon X forward a-arm kit instructions and they do include them with that kit so they may help find that happy medium that won't nuke a CV joint.

I've marked up the image in red with what @PaulF is thinking may be the gearbox case physical difference between the X and R case. X would be narrower and R would be wider.



Again, all speculation at this point and it could very well turn into a "learn from my mistakes" adventure and I'll have to hassle with returning a steering rack and spend 5 or 6 hours wrenching for nothing.

 

[PaulF]

Visited my dealer today and looked at the R, X and X4 and there is a definite difference in the rack housing that restricts the R's turning radius. The rack housing on the R appears to be approximately .2 inches longer on each end. I honestly didn't think it would be this obvious/noticeable...

R Left Side

X (both 2 and 4 seater) Left Side...

R Right Side...

X Right Side...

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

Visited my dealer today and looked at the R, X and X4 and there is a definite difference in the rack housing that restricts the R's turning radius. The rack housing on the R appears to be approximately .2 inches longer on each end. I honestly didn't think it would be this obvious/noticeable...

R Left Side

View attachment 178398

X (both 2 and 4 seater) Left Side...

View attachment 178399

R Right Side...

View attachment 178400

X Right Side...

View attachment 178401

$217 and you’re golden then.

 

[PaulF]

$217 and you’re golden then.

Maybe. I said "appears" and "approximately" but I think a swap would be a good place to start.

An easier method for the masses might be for someone to fabricate (or machine down) inner tie rod ends that will allow the rack to travel more. Or if there are enough threads, provide a new lock ring with a built in spacer. Kind of the opposite of the stoppers mentioned that come with the SuperATV forward arms. This would entail simply replacing the inner tie rod ends and/or lock rings, setting the toe and centering the wheel if necessary...

Examples...

Of course, all of this depends on how much abuse the outer joints will tolerate. I'm sure that Honda built in a little safety margin there but the question is how much? I was looking at the service manual (stating that the R should turn in 32 degrees) and never noticed on my machine (with 1500 miles) that my rack wasn't centered. The steering wheel was actually put on crooked and the steering centered to the crooked wheel. Checking per the manual, my machine turned 3 degrees more (35 degrees) to the left and 3 degrees less (29 degrees) to the right from the factory and my left outer joint is just fine. Last night I corrected this and centered my rack and wheel per factory specs.

 

[jasond]

Great info developing here.

I’ve got an X rack ordered and received the steering stop kit from SATV today to have on hand when I’m ready to start tinkering.

I’ll be recording my findings and documenting via photos/video.