FINALLY, Another Turbo Option for the Talon!

[SLOWPOKE693]

I'm starting to think about improved performance but staying NA. My problem is that half of my riding is at 8,000 + feet elevation, a fairly small percentage of the riding population (sometimes over 13k feet). @PaulF brought up hot start problems at altitude and Honda doesn't seem to care because of the small unit numbers involved.

If someone is really taking the altitude tuning seriously, that would be awesome for some of us.

Another concern I have is the open loop, closed loop fuel injection (I think that's the terms). One of them, and I think the Talon, is pretty 'dumb' and doesn't adjust on the fly, it simply uses a fuel map. I think that defeats the whole purpose of FI.

You are going to want a turbo kit if your riding at high altitude all the time. No amount of tuning is going to make up for the lack of air at altitude and horsepower loss is just a product of that.

You don't want to start down the N/A power road either, its expensive and in your case wouldn't be worth the investment. A ported head and cam with stock compression will be lame at best. Your not going to want high compression pistons because then you step into the world of race fuel and $9 a gallon prices. You don't like noise (from what I've read in other threads) so an aftermarket exhaust would be out of the question and not having one and trying to make decent N/A power without it is futile.

 

[Admin]

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

And for you non believers......

There is a short video floating around YouTube of a PPEI tuned turbo Talon high atop a mountain busting trail through the snow with the owner commenting on how much better it is with the new tuning.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

 

[CID]

You are going to want a turbo kit if your riding at high altitude all the time. No amount of tuning is going to make up for the lack of air at altitude and horsepower loss is just a product of that.

You don't want to start down the N/A power road either, its expensive and in your case wouldn't be worth the investment. A ported head and cam with stock compression will be lame at best. Your not going to want high compression pistons because then you step into the world of race fuel and $9 a gallon prices. You don't like noise (from what I've read in other threads) so an aftermarket exhaust would be out of the question and not having one and trying to make decent N/A power without it is futile.

We see the SxS world from two different planets, you're on Mars, I'm on Venus; neither is wrong. You've read me right, noise is a negative for me. Sure, I'd love to have 160 HP but it comes with some insurmountable obstacles - 1. Cost. 2. Piston replacement. 3. Up until now, tuning for my altitudes. 4. I'd use that HP less than 5% of the time. 5. I'm north of 70 and at a different point in my life than when I raced MX. 6. I'm mechanically sympathetic and having a glowing ember attached to the engine just ain't rite.

All I wanted is properly engineered FI which should be good from sea level to 20k feet, ours isn't. Honda chose to cheap out (price point engineering) and that disappoints me.

I don't need 160 HP to do this and I wouldn't roll two or three times, I'd roll for a thousand feet.

The photo is a screen shot from this video, a couple of more interesting sections are at 6:10 and 8:30. I'm not looking for attention or youtube 'hits', just defining what I do in the Talon for those I haven't met yet. Watch if you'd like.

More rocks, HP doesn't help much here, regardless of altitude, best at 6:25 -

 

[CID]

I wonder what they've done with the I4wd, I think it would fail miserably in those conditions with constant hunting for traction between the left and right front tires.

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

We see the SxS world from two different planets, you're on Mars, I'm on Venus; neither is wrong. You've read me right, noise is a negative for me. Sure, I'd love to have 160 HP but it comes with some insurmountable obstacles - 1. Cost. 2. Piston replacement. 3. Up until now, tuning for my altitudes. 4. I'd use that HP less than 5% of the time. 5. I'm north of 70 and at a different point in my life than when I raced MX. 6. I'm mechanically sympathetic and having a glowing ember attached to the engine just ain't rite.

All I wanted is properly engineered FI which should be good from sea level to 20k feet, ous isn't. Honda chose to cheap out (price point engineering) and that disappoints me.

I don't need 160 HP to do this and I wouldn't roll two or three times, I'd roll for a thousand feet.
View attachment 321559

The photo is a screen shot from this video, a couple of more interesting sections are at 6:10 and 8:30. I'm not looking for attention or youtube 'hits', just defining what I do in the Talon for those I haven't met yet. Watch if you'd like.

More rocks, HP doesn't help much here, regardless of altitude, best at 6:25 -

I think driving around on those trails stock power is just fine.

if you were on things where speed and momentum is critical maybe it would be worth bumping the power up. (IE hillclimbs off trail, mountain tundra climbs, sand etc. )

best improvements would be tires, IGR. 2 speedohealers and torque locker.

 

[PaulF]

I'm starting to think about improved performance but staying NA. My problem is that half of my riding is at 8,000 + feet elevation, a fairly small percentage of the riding population (sometimes over 13k feet). @PaulF brought up hot start problems at altitude and Honda doesn't seem to care because of the small unit numbers involved.

If someone is really taking the altitude tuning seriously, that would be awesome for some of us.

Another concern I have is the open loop, closed loop fuel injection (I think that's the terms). One of them, and I think the Talon, is pretty 'dumb' and doesn't adjust on the fly, it simply uses a fuel map. I think that defeats the whole purpose of FI.

The stock engine fuel feedback on the Talon are pretty basic (and lame if you ask me). This is why all the altitude problems and limited turbo tuning options. My EFI Onan 5500 generator has a similar feedback system but that is because it is meant to operate stationary and not climb hills

I have been able to reduce the hot start problem somewhat. The problems is that the Talon has no Baro sensor to determine altitude, it uses the MAP sensor to determine barometric pressure and the corresponding altitude. The only way to check and adjust for altitude changes is with KOEO. This is fine if you are only changing a few hundred feet but if you climb a 3,000 feet, your AFR is now way off unless you restart the engine. BUT, I have found that it takes a few seconds to "recalibrate" the ECU to the new altitude so if you just start the car like most of us do (turn immediately to the start position), it seems the ECU doesn't have a chance to read the new KOEO MAP reading and just uses the previous one (but that one was 3,000 feet ago. Next time try this...

After you climb and shut off the engine, when you go to restart, turn the key on and wait for all the lights in the dash to "settle down" (about 3 seconds). Once that happens, start the engine. I have found this somewhat reduces the poor running after a hill climb. Not always perfect but it helps a lot.​

As far as open/closed loop. The Talon has a "stupid" Narrow Band O2 sensor that was outdated 20 years ago. It only tells the ECU if the AFR is Stoichiometric, rich or lean but nothing in between. It is so slow, it only works at idle and is there to keep the emissions down at idle. As soon as you press the gas, the ECU switches to one of 2 open loop modes. and uses a combination of RPM, TPS, Temp, MAP, etc. and "calculates" fuel (in the form of injector pulse width) based on those inputs. Again, it adjusts for altitude by reading the MAP with KOEO so if you don't wait the 3 seconds, the ECU can't adjust after a hill climb.

IOW, if you start at sea level, never shut the engine off and drive to 5,000 feet, you will be running so rich that the machine will probably die. If you start at 5,000 feet and drop to sea level and never shut the engine off, you will be running so lean it will probably burn the engine up.

 

[PaulF]

I wonder what they've done with the I4wd, I think it would fail miserably in those conditions with constant hunting for traction between the left and right front tires.

I would agree here. After installing the Torq Locker, the "hunting" in the sand seems to be gone and the power during climbing is now constant and I have to let off the gas at times when before, the brakes applied by i4WD to "create traction" just stalled me out at times. In my experience, i4WD works great 95% of time but fails badly in snow and sand.

 

[CID]

The stock engine fuel feedback on the Talon are pretty basic (and lame if you ask me). This is why all the altitude problems and limited turbo tuning options. My EFI Onan 5500 generator has a similar feedback system but that is because it is meant to operate stationary and not climb hills

I have been able to reduce the hot start problem somewhat. The problems is that the Talon has no Baro sensor to determine altitude, it uses the MAP sensor to determine barometric pressure and the corresponding altitude. The only way to check and adjust for altitude changes is with KOEO. This is fine if you are only changing a few hundred feet but if you climb a 3,000 feet, your AFR is now way off unless you restart the engine. BUT, I have found that it takes a few seconds to "recalibrate" the ECU to the new altitude so if you just start the car like most of us do (turn immediately to the start position), it seems the ECU doesn't have a chance to read the new KOEO MAP reading and just uses the previous one (but that one was 3,000 feet ago. Next time try this...

After you climb and shut off the engine, when you go to restart, turn the key on and wait for all the lights in the dash to "settle down" (about 3 seconds). Once that happens, start the engine. I have found this somewhat reduces the poor running after a hill climb. Not always perfect but it helps a lot.​

As far as open/closed loop. The Talon has a "stupid" Narrow Band O2 sensor that was outdated 20 years ago. It only tells the ECU if the AFR is Stoichiometric, rich or lean but nothing in between. It is so slow, it only works at idle and is there to keep the emissions down at idle. As soon as you press the gas, the ECU switches to one of 2 open loop modes. and uses a combination of RPM, TPS, Temp, MAP, etc. and "calculates" fuel (in the form of injector pulse width) based on those inputs. Again, it adjusts for altitude by reading the MAP with KOEO so if you don't wait the 3 seconds, the ECU can't adjust after a hill climb.

IOW, if you start at sea level, never shut the engine off and drive to 5,000 feet, you will be running so rich that the machine will probably die. If you start at 5,000 feet and drop to sea level and never shut the engine off, you will be running so lean it will probably burn the engine up.

Thanks, Paul; I added this to the New Talon Owners Thread. #beers (linked in my sig)

 

[Many_Gs]

Just watched a good review on KraftWerks, spikes my interest even more.

Anyone here on the forums have direct experience? What was your purchase experience like, how was the install (assuming you did it yourself?). Thoughts on the hardware and quality of the entire package?

Really curious if it's worth the extra 40-50hp. Is that or the Jackson racing that much of a game changer?

Also noticed the website says it's for the 1000R. Assuming it'll work for the 1000x 4 too.

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[HondaTech]

You guys with turbo kits or who are thinking about adding one need to keep an eye on the PPEI Tuning FB page. They have been working on tuning for our engines, both N/A and turbo for well over a year and it's supposed to be released very very soon. They have figured out the fuel map and altitude adjustment problems and solved them all. Once this tuning is released to the public it's going to be the game changer you guys have all been looking for. Stay tuned.....

PPEI woke up our XC car alot.

 

[PaulF]

Just watched a good review on KraftWerks, spikes my interest even more.

Anyone here on the forums have direct experience? What was your purchase experience like, how was the install (assuming you did it yourself?). Thoughts on the hardware and quality of the entire package?

Really curious if it's worth the extra 40-50hp. Is that or the Jackson racing that much of a game changer?

Also noticed the website says it's for the 1000R. Assuming it'll work for the 1000x 4 too.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

You will have to wait a while for feedback, it has only been out less than a week. I doubt anyone has even installed one yet (other than the prototypes). You may see some next week but that will only tell us purchase, delivery and install experiences. We need a lot more time before any problems creep up.

It dynos out to 140 WHP (as compared to 122 WHP for the Jackson kit) so you get a little more bang for the buck. Time will tell if it has the same issues as the Jackson such as tuning problems, broken hardware, broken exhaust manifolds, etc. KraftWerks claims they saw those problems and made every effort to avoid them and that is why it took so long to release.

Jackson's turbo system was such a hot mess from day one and continues to be problematic. So much so that they now sell the parts that are known to break in case you are out of warranty. I would never do the Jackson system, too many problems.

Website is wrong. It originally said 2020-2021 all models now it says 2019-2021 R. Tomorrow it will say something else and will continue to change until they get it right.

The differences is probably the tuner or tunes. Some models have a 4 pin plug and others have a 6 and there are 49 states and CA differences too. Not sure if the tuner has them all figured out yet or just the R for right now so that may be why they only list the R.

I will let Jason know there are questions and see what he says.

 

[Many_Gs]

You will have to wait a while for feedback, it has only been out less than a week. I doubt anyone has even installed one yet (other than the prototypes). You may see some next week but that will only tell us purchase, delivery and install experiences. We need a lot more time before any problems creep up.

It dynos out to 140 WHP (as compared to 122 WHP for the Jackson kit) so you get a little more bang for the buck. Time will tell if it has the same issues as the Jackson such as tuning problems, broken hardware, broken exhaust manifolds, etc. KraftWerks claims they saw those problems and made every effort to avoid them and that is why it took so long to release.

Jackson's turbo system was such a hot mess from day one and continues to be problematic. So much so that they now sell the parts that are known to break in case you are out of warranty. I would never do the Jackson system, too many problems.

Website is wrong. It originally said 2020-2021 all models now it says 2019-2021 R. Tomorrow it will say something else and will continue to change until they get it right.

The differences is probably the tuner or tunes. Some models have a 4 pin plug and others have a 6 and there are 49 states and CA differences too. Not sure if the tuner has them all figured out yet or just the R for right now so that may be why they only list the R.

I will let Jason know there are questions and see what he says.

Yea, there's still a lot to be seen on these I'm sure. I have been wanting to get a hold of one from JR for a while, and now seeing this one hitting release date I'm very interested. I'm going to give them a call tomorrow to chat. If they are ready to sell and it'll work for me and my setup I may place an order.

Cash in hand and I better order while the wife's good with it hahaa.

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[PaulF]

And just for comparison, KraftWerks claims a little more gain...

Jackson kit now $5800 and includes the tuner. 43 WHP gain so $135/WHP gain
Kraftwerks is $4415 plus $430 for the PV3 if you don't already have one so $4,845. 53 WHP gain so that is $92/WHP gain.

Of course that is all sales BS so let's assume they are the same gain for comparison sake. Let's use the "up to 60%" gain like Jackson originally said but no longer have dyno results posted and the "at least 60% that KraftWerks states and go with 60% at the common/known 105HP crank number and use 63 HP gain...

Jackson cost $92/HP
KraftWerks cost 77/HP

KW (as long as it stays together) appears to be a better bang for the buck but I will wait for more feedback and especially some head to head races with similar weight machines before I pass judgment.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Yea, there's still a lot to be seen on these I'm sure. I have been wanting to get a hold of one from JR for a while, and now seeing this one hitting release date I'm very interested. I'm going to give them a call tomorrow to chat. If they are ready to sell and it'll work for me and my setup I may place an order.

Cash in hand and I better order while the wife's good with it hahaa.

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I'd do it, if I were in the market for a turbo system and I'd pick up a set of stock compression ratio Wossner forged pistons from MCB Performance and install it all at the same time. Buy once, cry once is how I see it.

Hurry up and do it before she changes her mind! 🤣

 

[Many_Gs]

Order placed, unfortunately, they are backed up until April. I expect we'll get delivery at or before May. Hoping the installation doesn't take but a few hours. Now to order the Dynojet PV3 and get the map ready!

They assured me that the manifolds are thicker and we shouldn't have any cracks as we see with the JR kits. I'm excited and looking forward to receiving it, it'll be an absolute blast out on the trails!

 

[PaulF]

You will have to wait a while for feedback, it has only been out less than a week. I doubt anyone has even installed one yet (other than the prototypes). You may see some next week but that will only tell us purchase, delivery and install experiences. We need a lot more time before any problems creep up.

It dynos out to 140 WHP (as compared to 122 WHP for the Jackson kit) so you get a little more bang for the buck. Time will tell if it has the same issues as the Jackson such as tuning problems, broken hardware, broken exhaust manifolds, etc. KraftWerks claims they saw those problems and made every effort to avoid them and that is why it took so long to release.

Jackson's turbo system was such a hot mess from day one and continues to be problematic. So much so that they now sell the parts that are known to break in case you are out of warranty. I would never do the Jackson system, too many problems.

Website is wrong. It originally said 2020-2021 all models now it says 2019-2021 R. Tomorrow it will say something else and will continue to change until they get it right.

The differences is probably the tuner or tunes. Some models have a 4 pin plug and others have a 6 and there are 49 states and CA differences too. Not sure if the tuner has them all figured out yet or just the R for right now so that may be why they only list the R.

I will let Jason know there are questions and see what he says.

Verified with Jason @ KraftWerks and the Turbo fits all 2019-2021 models.

Like @Many_Gs said, they are out of stock. Sold out in a couple days and I assume they made 1 or 2 hundred so we should start hearing some feedback in a couple weeks and have some pretty good feedback to go on in a couple months.

If all goes as promised, I may get in line myself

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Did either of you guys find out if their base tunes are truly unlocked like the website leads you to believe?

I'm happy to see that there's another player in the Talon turbo game now. Competition breeds innovation. 😎

 

[PaulF]

Did either of you guys find out if their base tunes are truly unlocked like the website leads you to believe?

Nope and that would be the first thing I would consider and would post it here AS SOON as I knew because it is a point of contention with many.

 

[Many_Gs]

Did either of you guys find out if their base tunes are truly unlocked like the website leads you to believe?

I'm happy to see that there's another player in the Talon turbo game now. Competition breeds innovation. 😎

As in, open source tunable and you're able to edit the map?

As it stands it's a map they created and we upload and that's it, right? I should have vetted this out a bit further, however, I have been wanting a turbo for a while now and simply ordered it.