Feedback Needed. Jumping the Talon X 2 after shock upgrades.

[CrosbyTalon]

I saw this previously as well. Issue is that the 2021 live valve version is different shock/spring setup from previous X models. From what I can research the previous X models had no crossover rings and the tender spring was basically nearly at coil bind from factory. My 2021 live valve has crossover rings and the tender springs look to be serving the purpose of an actual tender spring.

 

[Admin]

 

[PaulF]

Ok. So I have been kicking around spring replacement on my 2021 Talon X. But I cannot find specs on the tender spring spec for stock. I have heard go to 10-12” 150lbs. tender springs but no real data on results. My question is not knowing a base line could one just load up the back with predetermined amount of weight until you get the soft supple ride then, deduct little by little until the suspension rebounds an inch and get a base line that way?

When asking for information on your machine, please always indicate that it is a LV so you get accurate information.

I saw this previously as well. Issue is that the 2021 live valve version is different shock/spring setup from previous X models. From what I can research the previous X models had no crossover rings and the tender spring was basically nearly at coil bind from factory. My 2021 live valve has crossover rings and the tender springs look to be serving the purpose of an actual tender spring.

Actually no. The R and the LV have a lower spring, an upper spring, a crossover ring and no tender. Only the Non LV X has a "Tender" spring.

Most people label the springs and spring setups incorrectly. A true tender spring (like on the non LV X model) is there to keep the main spring tight when the shock is extended and will collapse (bind) under normal riding conditions and have little to no effect on the spring rate used during normal riding. A "tender's" main purpose is to ensure the main spring doesn't flop around. That is why on the non LV X (and many other machines) it is bound when sitting level. Most think there is something wrong when in fact, that is how it is designed.

If you have 2 springs and neither is bound and there is no crossover rings, this is correctly referred to as a "Dual Spring" setup. If you have 2 springs and there is some sort of crossover (either with a ring or a non-bound upper spring that eventually binds when the suspension is partially compressed) that is referred to a "Dual Rate" setup. There is generally no "tender" involved with these but sometimes on very long shocks, there can be a 3rd spring that will be a tender.

The Bandit springs for the Non LV X get rid of the "Tender" spring and replace it to make it a "Dual Spring" system. If the bandit upper spring eventually binds then you have a Dual Rate setup. If you add crossover rings, then you get a true, adjustable "Dual Rate" system like the R and the LV models.

 

[CID]

Curious, I thought coil bind was bad for springs but tenders get bound every time they get unloaded enough and then recompressed. 🤔

 

[PaulF]

Curious, I thought coil bind was bad for springs but tenders get bound every time they get unloaded enough and then recompressed. 🤔

Depends on the spring and design of the system. Some are designed to bind, others are not. For example...

On the R, the upper spring is factored into the spring rate(s) and NOT designed to bind so you must be careful when adjusting the crossover..

On the Non LV X, the tender is designed to bind and is basically ignored in the spring rate calculation. It might be there to soften up the extension to eliminate extension bang but other than that, it is basically useless.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

There is some good info in here regarding springs!

Wish I would have known those rates 11 months ago when I first got my R. I wanted to play with the rates initially and couldn't find any info. Fox had no clue what the numbers on the springs meant and had no info on what they might be.

 

[CTDpower]

I have a 2020 Talon X nonLV with bandit springs. It bucks and nosedives when I hit speed bump jumps, but if the shape of the jump is right It flies nice and flat. Seems to be if the face is long enough to let your suspension settle out before lift off then it works well. I can tell by looking if it is gonna fly or buck before I hit the jump. I use mine for trails, so I'm not really concerned about it, but I have been jumping it more lately because it is so much fun LOL!

This isn't me, but fast forward to 6:45 and this is exactly when mine looks like jumping (when you hit the right jump)...

 

[79xs]

I thought I was beating a dead horse when I started this thread, but I guess it's still a ongoing concern. Lots of great info here. Am I making a big deal over nothing? Is it more than safe enough with a spring kit?

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I wonder if the X model in that video has had any shock valving and/or spring changes made to it. That X seems to jump alot better than the R model over that same ramp. 🤔

 

[PaulF]

I wonder if the X model in that video has had any shock valving and/or spring changes made to it. That X seems to jump alot better than the R model over that same ramp. 🤔

Hard to tell and not going to make much difference anyway. The bucking/nose diving is caused by the suspension geometry. Shock tuning only reduces it (and not really by much) but...

1. That jump is groomed/tailored for the type of suspension that a Talon has. Most other (good jumping) machines would actually pull the nose UP on those jumps. It is all in how you jump.
2. Letting off the throttle before the apex of the jump is going to be disastrous in almost any machine (like at around 4:30).
3. Letting off the throttle in flight will cause the nose to come down mid flight. A Talon is already trying to nose down so letting off the throttle in mid jump just causes the nose to come down fast.
4. "Wheelin Dillon" is simply a better jumper. He is going faster and stays on the throttle over the apex of the jumps and keeps revving through the entire jump. "Wheelin Dillon's Woman" and "Doc" are bit tentative, you can hear them release the throttle early. On the jump at 4:30, Doc releases the throttle before the apex and the R completely takes a nose dive.

Listen to the throttle (both at the apex and throughout the jumps) and you will see what I mean. One driver is just better at jumping than the other 2 (and be mindful, they switch up drivers in each machine).

 

[PaulF]

I thought I was beating a dead horse when I started this thread, but I guess it's still a ongoing concern. Lots of great info here. Am I making a big deal over nothing? Is it more than safe enough with a spring kit?

Oh no, this horse is alive and kicking (or should I say "bucking").

 

[Hometeam]

I wonder if the X model in that video has had any shock valving and/or spring changes made to it. That X seems to jump alot better than the R model over that same ramp. 🤔

I believe it is more driver in that situation then car. Actually jumping is mostly jump selection and driver. For the talon and most machines that are going to jump properly, It is jump selection and driver. For jump selection it needs to be a ramp that fits the entire machine on the ramp before it exits. If you have a 48-in wheelbase dirt bike and you go to jump off of a 2-ft ramp it will endow you unless you are able to time the throttle and shifting of your weight when the front end leaves to keep the front end lifted. Otherwise the front end will leave the jump and start to rotate down as the back end is catching it pushing an endo type jump. Different suspension geometries can make this action worse but the reality is a Can-Am (long wheelbase example) on the wrong jump will still nosedive. You can look on the Honda Facebook page and there are lots of Talons jumping at the dunes and getting lots of air and staying flat. The reason is the dunes typically have a 20-50+-ft ramp so the whole car is on the ramp as it exits the jump. That has been my experience and what the professionals have explained to me when I've asked them. And like @PaulF said, you can't have it both ways. The talon climbs amazing with out as much of a fear of a backwards rollover because of its suspension geometry so the talons suspension on rocky climbs keeps the front end down making contact with the ground still helping it through the climb. It also at the same time will propel the rear end over the obstacle that it is hitting. That's why the talon suffers a bit in whoops. The front end has left the whoop while the back end is getting jacked up in the air. A longer wheelbase and longer trailing arms will counteract that action making it go through those faster but it does give up something to get that whoop speed. Now the talon does have some suspension geometry that is awesome. For some reason in the off-road world it seems like we don't look at the front end geometry as much as we do the rear. When you think of something handling well and cornering well that is majority related to the front end suspension geometry. When going fast through a straight line and accepting big bumps and harsh terrain that it is mainly the rear suspension geometry that plays the bigger part in that. I know they both play a part in both situations just saying one plays a bigger role in a different type of terrain than the other. When you go to the short course tracks and see the Honda Talon (and the YXZ) doing so well at that type of racing is because it is more of a handling / front-end geometry suspension that excels at those tracks. When you look at a Baja 500 they are not as concerned as to how well it corners but more at being able to maintain xxxxmiles per hour for 500 miles of driving. And the straight line whoops type terrain and speed in that type of terrain is king in that race.

I have my suspension completely done and I have high/low compression adjusters put on by Gary at G-Force Racing. What those adjusters allow me to do that helps my talon jump well when I want it to and still handle well.... I raise the compression on my front shocks and lower it on my rear that allows my front to push higher while my rear is soaking up the jump if it's too small of a jump (not that this is a perfect fix but it does help mitigate it). Throttling through it is a must and will help the car from a nosedive. My suspension now has a couple inches of plushness which feels awesome but still bites in the corners due to my spring and valving job. With the suspension setup properly on the talon It is absolutely awesome overall machine! That has been my overall understanding and experience.

 

[PaulF]

Talons with worked over shocks, experienced driver and most importantly, the correct jump, can jump high, flat and long. See this video starting at 6:12. Slow mo shows 45 in 4th gear at the bottom of the hill and he scrubs of 10 mph to 35 by the time he gets to the top...

Watch a few more jumps, the Talon is quite impressive.

 

[79xs]

The talon climbs amazing with out as much of a fear of a backwards rollover because of its suspension geometry so the talons suspension on rocky climbs keeps the front end down making contact with the ground still helping it through the climb.

Wow, this really helps clear things up for me. So, if one is stuck with the wheelbase of a Talon X, the current suspension is designed to keep it stable in a climb, but the tradeoff is that it doesn't fly very well. Is that a correct statement?

 

[CID]

Jump to 9:43

 

[Lil_Steve]

It's a good thing he was wearing a harness.

 

[PaulF]

Jump to 9:43

This poor guy does just about everything wrong...

• The jump is way too abrupt.
• He backs off the throttle before even reaching the jump.
• He panics and does not throttle out when landing.
• He may have even hit the brakes.
• His tires hit a lower spot on what appears to be a landing pad...

At this point, full throttle in 4 wheel would have pulled this out, but...

His tire almost completely collapses and the frame by frame looks like the wheels are not turning so I think he has locked up the brakes...

And the jump is built horrible. Even a known good jumper lands like a PoPo crap over this jump...

And again...

And another...

And another. They should have fixed this jump before someone else got hurt...

 

[amgdriver]

Not a Talon owner but have spoke with several Shock Therapy is the bomb. I would contact them to resolve this issue/question

 

[79xs]

PaulF, very nice write up, but did you use the Madden voice?.. kidding. Back to my question above, if one is stuck with the wheelbase and width of a Talon X, the current suspension is designed to keep it stable in a climb, but the tradeoff is that it doesn't fly very well. Is that a correct statement?

 

[Hometeam]

Wow, this really helps clear things up for me. So, if one is stuck with the wheelbase of a Talon X, the current suspension is designed to keep it stable in a climb, but the tradeoff is that it doesn't fly very well. Is that a correct statement?

No that is not entirely the case. It is a little more complicated than that And I am not sure if that was Hondas intent or not but that is what Honda's design lends more to. That does not mean that other machines can't climb well It just means that that might be an area that the Honda Talon would have a slight advantage / Excel in. Which is the same with the jumping. As you saw in the videos from blue holler a Talon X can jump well and flat. As PaulF described and is the case most of the time, is choice of jump and experience in jumping properly. Deceleration and lack of throttle is usually bad news on any machine on any jump. You notice in the video where the talon R endowed. That was a combination of bad designed jump and driver error. The other brand of machines that were jumping could have very well endowed over that jump also had they not kept their foot in the throttle more than he did. But on a jump a different suspension design will have a slight advantage when a mistake is made or the wrong jump is chosen. A longer design will not penalize you quite as much. I have no problem attacking jumps in my Honda Talon X. I'm not looking for every jump known to man but I do like to hit jumps. There are a lot of factors in this and I am not an expert so that is what I would call the basics.