P1000 Does anybody have a good idea why Honda is turning their back on the 1000?

[Plumber101010]

As some of you may know, I was very ignorant to UTV's.

I had never owned one before except when I played around with my Massimo 500 for a couple months and then decided I enjoyed it so much it was time to go for the biggest boy I could.

I'm not exactly what you would call a brand loyalist. And didn't really know much when I was shopping around. If you want to even call it shopping around.

One of my first hits when I was googling trying to decide what to get was of course Polaris. I just assumed like most idiots that they were number one for a reason, most popular, and so must be the best.

I don't know what on earth prompted me to dig further, I really don't, but I did. And thank God I did. Because come to find out, Polaris is nothing but a big bag of troubles that's popular because of all the other people like me that just bought one not knowing any better.

Of course it didn't take long before the Honda pioneer 1000 popped up. Never owned a Honda "vehicle" of any type,
but I have owned a slew of Honda motorbikes, generators, pressure washers, just about anything else I have a Honda engine on.

But still that's not what sold me.
Being the kind of guy that LOVED and owned go karts his whole life I knew I didn't like anything driven by belts. Belt break and belts slip and belts this and belts that. Belts and water just don't go together.

So about the time I noticed it was shaft driven I was already sold. I never once stopped to think about problems or reliability, because what I did own with the Honda name on it was indestructible and even though I've never owned a Honda vehicle, I was definitely aware of Hondas infamous and impeccable reputation for quality built machines. ANY machine.

I was also very much aware at how Honda stood behind their products. In a lot of cases even fixing things for "goodwill" just to maintain their reputation.

But because I don't have too much experience on that side of it, other than being aware of it, maybe some other people out there that are much more of a Honda enthusiast can answer this question.

What the HELL is wrong with these people? Honda has been known to stand behind their products if they ever had an issue, if something went wrong. And honestly, if there was ever a piece of equipment they should choose to do this on, you would think their UTV's would be at the top of the list!!!

A new product, designed in a very new way, trying to break into a very established market. A first-year production run that could set the base for decades of sales!

Why Honda isn't jumping all over themselves at the chance to maintain their reputation by fixing these units that are having issues and admitting that they're having problems is so far beyond my imagination I just simply cannot fathom it.

And worse than that, they are not even man enough to make a statement, to release information, to pop in on a forum like this one and say something instead of staying hidden behind the big curtain like the Wizard of Oz.

They just don't want to touch it with a 20 foot pole.

Is this strictly financial reasons??? Does anyone out there who has dealt with Honda warranty issues have any explanation what is going on here?

I mean I'm OK with brand loyalty, but some people are just taking it to ridiculous extremes!

I just got done reading a thread at another forum where more cases were popping up of people completely ruining their engines by going through a puddle of standing water, and one guy says "stop whining, put a snorkel on the thing, put on the heat shield, and forget about it."

I couldn't help but reply "One should not have to put a snorkel on a $17,000 UTV to go through a rain puddle"

I mean I'm just wondering if anybody but anybody but anybody can explain the logic to me as to why a company that has had such an unquestionable reputation of not just quality, but standing behind that quality, would suddenly disappear off the face of the earth when they KNOW they have a known problem?

The recall would not cost them that much and the fix would be yet so simple. What are they waiting for? As I say, I'm new to owning a Honda vehicle, but even as a newbie, it's a well accepted fact that Honda produces some of the best machines on planet earth.

So why would a company suddenly drop this in everyone's lap and hide behind plausible deniability, on probably the one piece of equipment that would be the worst thing to do that on???

Honda, you SUCK for not taking care of these issues and for making some of your most brand loyal customers, like CP for one, have to endure an issue that you should've been first in line for, raising your hands high, and saying no sir, we will take care of this problem for you!!!

The more I think about what CP had to go through, unfortunately being probably one of the first ones, if not THE first one to encounter this issue, I just shutter. I shutter thinking to myself about how proud he must've felt driving his brand new, $17,000 HONDA UTV, until he ran through a water puddle and had the engine implode as a result of it. And worse? Having Honda blame him for user error???

There was only ONE error he made, and that was choosing to make the natural assumption that he could drive a HONDA thru water puddles after it rains in a $17,000 all-terrain UTV, silly silly him..

Well. There was one other user error,
but not in the operation of it, but in the purchasing of it.

I'm lucky, I' live high up in the mountains and I just won't probably ever encounter any water unless I decide to trailer it up and bring it somewhere.

But the more that I read, the more that this issue is becoming known, the more it slaps you in the face when you hear about multiple cases now happening on a pretty regular basis, of people riding through water and destroying their engine, well all I can say is.

Honda? Yes, you're an absentee landlord and you should be VERY ASHAMED of yourself for coming out with such a first rate piece of equipment, which probably is still the best made UTV on the planet, but then sticking your head in the sand when another 1000 rolls in the door with the same problem CP had, and ignorantly and blatantly, continuing to FALSELY claim user error.

One mans humble opinion

Update: One mans ended rant

 

[Admin]

 

[AKRider]

You should have ended with /end rant ;-)

 

[Plumber101010]

You should have ended with /end rant ;-)

See above

 

[CumminsPusher]

This is obviously something I still feel very opinionated about and with due cause. I still agree that a simple fix is in order and Honda dropped the ball on this. I believe it's the best rig out there so in my thinking they should spend a bit of time and energy to perfect it. Many won't have the water issue but many already have. Mine did get replaced but with no help from Honda lots of out of pocket,help from members on this site, 100's of hours of work and some praying.it was the single most s***ty thing that's ever happened to us. Driving along having fun...oops 18k down the toilet! I was told they saw the video of me in the puddle and believed that was abuse. Weird because all our dirt bikes can make it out trucks quads everything. Even the Hyundai Sante Fe that pulled the totaled out Honda back home. Why not my 18k sxs? Yes I still got another Honda. Of course, minus a couple issues it's incredible and still the best but come on. I think we've done a good thing on this site by warning people and getting the rigs snorkeled. I'm sure we've saved many possible encounters and many people still have a running vehicle. Without this much talk on this site and others it would have been really bad for Honda. In my eyes they should be thankful of what we've accomplished here it's helped to erase part of the issue. So on the next warranty claim please Honda pay attention! Learn from this and build future rigs a little differently IMO.
My rant over.

 

[Plumber101010]

No doubt the information on this forum has been immense in preventing this problem from happening to others. As it normally goes in life, there are always the sacrificial lambs that have to endure the painful process the hard way, so that the information can come the easy way for others.

You would think they would've at least displayed an interest in this. They would've come on this forum and all others and said "we are possibly aware that there may be an issue here, and we are working hard to come up with a solution".

Then post updates, monitor the issue closely. And then at a minimum if they didn't want to issue a recall, say the following:

"We here at Honda have discovered a potential issue that could cause major internal engine damage due to a possible design flaw. While this problem has only happened to a select few of the Pioneer 1000 models not enough information has been derived to warrant a recall, but as a precautionary measure, we would like to release the following information and send out free of charge, a kit that can be installed by the end user to prevent this issue from happening"

But such is the world of accepting liability for a known issue..

I just feel if this was a shock absorber, or wheel lug, the recall would've done done by now.

But because this issue leads to basically either a brand-new engine or the rebuilding of a brand-new engine, the bean counters at Honda have went to work diligently and decided not to say anything.

They have pulled out their risk calculators and determined that X amount of machines sold, times X amount of possibilities of this happening per machine, equals HUSH HUSH HUSH.

Ok. I'm done

 

[CumminsPusher]

That's not something that's politically correct to say on the site and many will be offended but considering the nature of cost for the consumer to fix or replace, i'm glad some of that was said...I actually agree.


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[AKRider]

Here's my take. Unless all the people that have issues, or have had issues, bombard Honda with phone calls, letters, and emails, they will continue to ignore the problems. We can b!+€h all we want on here. It won't make a difference. I have had issues with my machine. I still have an open case with them. I am totally frustrated with my dealer. I am shocked that a company that builds so many great products put out this machine without taking into account how people use them. Hell, I've had my 2004 Rancher in water up to the gas tank and never swamped it. I never even worried about it. I never worried about it leaving me stranded anywhere either, but that thought is always in the back of my mind when I'm out with the Pioneer.

When I meet people on the trail and they ask about the machine I tell them the truth. I tell them to wait until the 2017 comes out to see if Honda addresses the issues. If not, don't buy one unless they want to snorkel it and drive it with the rpm's up all the time so they don't burn up the clutches.

It's really sad that Honda has made a machine that a newbie can't just jump in and go have fun.

 

[Hondasxs]

Boy.. I'm sure glad you cats didn't buy a RZR. I wouldn't have enough database space for all your comments.

Though I agree there are some things that can be improved. I also know these things take time. And not your or my mind frame of time. A corporate world's frame of time. That means just deciding to go from a 12mm bolt to a 14mm bolt would most likely take 100+ people getting involved just to even get it approval for production.

After approval. Your looking at a year's time to mass produce that nut and bolt change. Your looking at a multi-million dollar decision just for that one bolt. Not to mention the board room decision of what to do with the thousands of unit already produced.

I know some of you are not happy. I understand. But driving it into the ground want help much. And to think Honda is not listening. Your wrong. They know of your problems before your dealer does. There are a few members who can contest to that. I'd place money honda has a whole department of workers paid to read these post. There most likely reading it right now...

So excuse me while I say..
(hi Honda guy or gal reading this.)

The Pioneer has been around for what. 3 years. The fastest designed unit Honda has ever made... And the 1000 barely a year old. How long has Popo been doing it and still can't get it right?

Ok.. This is one you need to mark. Cause I hardly ever rant..

.... Rant over.

Lol


I still love all you guys though....
Ride Red!

 

[hondabob]

Well guys I agree it would be good to have an improvement to the water splashing up over the dash. Most UTV's can splash through water and have water come up over the dash with no problems. I hope the 2017 has an improvement. Most of us don't read the owners manual and I expect most dealers don't know about the problem or they would point out the info in the owners manual. It looks like Honda knows about the water splashing issue and they may have found out about the issue too late for an improvement on the 2016 model. Page 104 in the owners says not more then 10 inches of water and proceed with a slow and steady speed. They have a warning in large print about severe engine damage if water enters the air intake. I would think the problem is worse with the engine at high rpm. It's going to be interesting to see the improvements on the 2017 Pioneer 1000 and hopefully they will have a sport model. It looks like the clutch issues are mostly lots of slipping at low speeds. That being said I would like to see a lower low range and also a lower reverse gear. I'm over 4,000 miles on mine but I make sure I'm driving above 3 mph in low range so my clutch won't be slipping. I'm careful in reverse but most don't back up very far. It takes a lot of clutch slipping to overheat the clutch and page 92 and 102 have warnings about clutch damage. A few dealers install large tires that are harder on the clutch so hopefully we will get a lower reverse and low range gears for large heavy Mud tires. I run 28 inch tires on mine. We should know the improvements in about a month. For the guys that have had major problems it really does suck. I have a 2016 Yamaha YXZ with a bit over 6,500 miles and its in the shop again with another warranty problem. Its been in the shop 4 times for 52 days total so far but I can drive my Honda so no problem. I use it for fast paced rides and don't slip the clutch so no clutch problems and should get over 60,000 miles or more out of the clutch just like the large road bikes. Yamaha gave me an additional 6 months of warranty after it was in the shop for 38 days. All the problems are minor but its a real pain to take it in. It takes a week before they can look at it, another week to get parts etc. Fortunately we have some super high end techs at our local dealer and I always make sure its squeaky clean before I take it in for repair. I always drive my Honda on our slow rock crawling rides because the YXZ is super high geared without a low range.

 

[Bfree66]

I started out in '02 with a Suzuki 500 vinson, then went to a 07 Can Am 800 outlander, then to 08 RZR, 10 RZR 4, 14 Arctic Cat Trail and now a P1K5. Point is I've snorkeled every one from day 1 because every single one has their air intake down low enough to ingest water above a 6 inch puddle. Every Single one had the potential to take on water through the intake. Honda is no different. These manufactures build these machines and test them in ideal conditions, never in the conditions we put them through. They all put in their manuals not to exceed 6" of water or something similar to that, just to protect themselves. But around 2010 AC came out with a mud machine complete with factory snorkels, then Can Am came out with a factory snorkels gorilla edition ATV and SXS, now Polaris builds a complete Highlifter line of bikes/sxs's all factory with snorkels. Unless you buy a mud specific machine then you need to snorkel it. Yeah maybe Honda needs to improve their air intake system but a homemade snorkel is cheap insurance. They all have their issues, and Honda is no exception. Go to the other forums and you'll see

 

[hondabob]

Polaris has a lot of models and I bought 3 of them. I put over 20,000 miles on them and it does cost a lot to keep them running. The RZR fun factor is there and I'm too old to wait. Now its only Honda and Yamaha and I'm totally done with belt drive. My Honda 1000 is my 14th side by side and I do all the maintenance and improvements myself. It takes about a week to fix all the issues on a Polaris for high mileage use. My Teryx and Rhino models all needed some improvements too. I just drove the 2017 Can-Am Maverick Turbo and its a full on race car. The problem is the $30,000 cost and if your not a highly skilled driver it had way too much power except for the sand dunes plus it has a belt drive. I'm going to be disappointed if Honda does not have an affordable $16,000 Sport Model next month.

 

[hondabob]

The unfortunate Pioneer 1000 water problem is no one really knew until some had major engine damage and it was probably CP having the damage first. Also there is a ton of owners that are not on the forum and its hard not to go splashing through water. If you read the owners manual you still may not have a clue about the splashing problem and many Pioneer owners had other UTV's that could blast through water and you just get wet.

 

[1BadDart]

Is the water splashing up on the hood and filling the air intake?

 

[AKRider]

Is the water splashing up on the hood and filling the air intake?

Take the cover off the air intake, start the machine, and put your hand over it. You'll understand what's happening fairly quick. If the machine doesn't begin to choke out then you have a leak somewhere and you need to check the entire intake all the way.

 

[ghost]

I'm curious what you guys are talking about but I just couldn't read all that. Ohhh, how I tried....

 

[Plumber101010]

Proudly taking credit for more loss of database space.. and luring HondaSXS into a rant I'm JUST trying to help you seek donations to increase said base

If not, don't expel me

But...seems like a possible slight contradiction there. One hand it's "wasting words isn't gonna help"' and on the other it's "Honda probably pays a staff of people to read these comments"

Which of course means the more Honda reads the better chance they may push a solution through those board meetings a little faster.

I can't help but feel the more negative comments that are made, the faster a company would move to make them stop.

I hear ya guys. But also wondering how much all of that means to good ole CP?

When the consumer is facing a $12,000 out of pocket engine rebuild price?

Rather than put a million warnings into the manual, how about we just design the intake not to suck water to start with?

I mean really, for such a major issue, I'm not sure burying that information on page 100 whatever helps much.

And they sure as heck don't show videos and commercials of the 1000 "slowly creeping through 10 inches of water" thats for dang sure!

Guess my point is this.' Many creative individuals on this forum had a fast, easy and quick solution to this issue right off, that appears those millions of dollars in research and development missed, as well as numerous board meetings missed.

If the good ole common man could
find such a fast solution, what does that leave one thinking about Honda?

Just thoughts ladies and gents, just thoughts

 

[AKRider]

Boy.. I'm sure glad you cats didn't buy a RZR. I wouldn't have enough database space for all your comments.

Though I agree there are some things that can be improved. I also know these things take time. And not your or my mind frame of time. A corporate world's frame of time. That means just deciding to go from a 12mm bolt to a 14mm bolt would most likely take 100+ people getting involved just to even get it approval for production.

After approval. Your looking at a year's time to mass produce that nut and bolt change. Your looking at a multi-million dollar decision just for that one bolt. Not to mention the board room decision of what to do with the thousands of unit already produced.

I know some of you are not happy. I understand. But driving it into the ground want help much. And to think Honda is not listening. Your wrong. They know of your problems before your dealer does. There are a few members who can contest to that. I'd place money honda has a whole department of workers paid to read these post. There most likely reading it right now...

So excuse me while I say..
(hi Honda guy or gal reading this.)

The Pioneer has been around for what. 3 years. The fastest designed unit Honda has ever made... And the 1000 barely a year old. How long has Popo been doing it and still can't get it right?

Ok.. This is one you need to mark. Cause I hardly ever rant..

.... Rant over.

Lol


I still love all you guys though....
Ride Red!

Here's the thing. I love the machine. I'm just surprised Honda didn't put more thought into it. They usually do. I drive it like it should be driven. I have everything snorkeled, not because I purposely play in water and mud, but because there are times I have no choice where I ride and hunt. I would have done it even if there wasn't an issue with the intake. Unless it turns out that the machine is actually going to be a maintenance nightmare I plan on keeping it forever. I'm actually planning on buying another in the future, but it may be a 500 or 700. I have to get rid of a RZR170 that my stepdaughter is quickly outgrowing first... lol. Besides, she really doesnt like it because it cant go to the places we like to go. It still bothers me that I always have it in the back of my head that I could get stranded somewhere. I've never felt that way on my Rancher or on the Rincon I sold when I bought the P1K.

 

[CumminsPusher]

@Hondasxs you know I'm as red as anyone here. I take 7 hondas with me every weekend. Our pos 2013 Polaris just sits until I can find a way to replace it with another Honda. I've bought a total of 8 brand new hondas since 05 and will buy nothing but from this point on.
I love my 1000 like no one and have put more time, energy and money into my 1000 then most and plan on having it a long and great time. But I had planned that once before as well. I'll never forget that feeling. The fact a company won't take care of someone who is very pro Honda like myself because of a few words or some pictures is inexcusable in my eyes. Then to possibly not ever take care of something from then on for the same reasons...I had not been rough on the machine not showing off simply following my family and friends. I do apologize for still being a little sore but I'll never forget that one. It could have been easily remedied IMO. Still could be. Does that mean I'm against Honda no. I absolutely know that most people that ride hard or really use their machines are on one of the sites and most have become aware of the problems and have either fixed them or simply try to stay away and that's the only reason this hasn't gotten much worse on a percentage scale.
I know this rig did slip a little compared to the other hondas and I'm positive that the company as a whole will improve and get better. The 1000 is an incredible rig and I truly believe with everything inside me it's the best! Couldn't imagine going back to belts even after my clutch issues. The others wouldn't have held up this well for what we do but again was left to fix this and I'm pretty sure I'm still the only one that had to and the only"regular " person to have changed them out. It's still better! I f***ing love my Pioneer otherwise I wouldn't have started over with one and even built more into it. I just hope they fix a couple issues. I'm sorry for asking for a small rant over the time I've been here put in and all the Honda's I've had over the years but I'm not going to lie either. I'm very upfront and honest all the time and I still want people to know of issues before it were to happen to them. I'm still 100% pro Honda! Polaris is crap,Can Am only slightly better,Kawi isn't enough and Yamaha as close as it is just isn't a Honda. I've owed many brands with horrible luck. They are garbage! Go Honda. I'm sorry for my rant I knew there would be controversy and had almost deleted it but it was my feelings.


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[AKRider]

If Honda people are reading this, I hope the person is getting OT... lol.

 

[AKRider]

Here's my take. Unless all the people that have issues, or have had issues, bombard Honda with phone calls, letters, and emails, they will continue to ignore the problems. We can b!+€h all we want on here. It won't make a difference. I have had issues with my machine. I still have an open case with them. I am totally frustrated with my dealer. I am shocked that a company that builds so many great products put out this machine without taking into account how people use them. Hell, I've had my 2004 Rancher in water up to the gas tank and never swamped it. I never even worried about it. I never worried about it leaving me stranded anywhere either, but that thought is always in the back of my mind when I'm out with the Pioneer.

When I meet people on the trail and they ask about the machine I tell them the truth. I tell them to wait until the 2017 comes out to see if Honda addresses the issues. If not, don't buy one unless they want to snorkel it and drive it with the rpm's up all the time so they don't burn up the clutches.

It's really sad that Honda has made a machine that a newbie can't just jump in and go have fun.

I left one part out of this. When people do ask me about the machine I always tell them that it's awesome and I love it, but I don't sugarcoat it and leave out the issues.