Air filter failure

[Dankathy]

Hope someone can learn from my mistake. I have a donaldson filterminder installed in the air box and have relied on it to indicate when the filter needed replaced. I have no reason to suspect the filterminder is defective, (it has worked well in the past) but it never tripped and the filter has passed enough dust that i am now looking at a new top end. Dealer showed me the orings, i believe they were all properly installed. Maybe a bad filter from honda? Doesnt seem likely. Never did seem to lack power or any other symptoms. Dealer is putting together a trade offer on a new one, we will see if i do that or fix it. Parts availability will be key. Compression is still good but the visual with a bore scope is not. This was discovered when I took it in for a valve adjustment

 

[Admin]

 

[dilligaff82]

Honda sucks at intakes. First the water intrusion issues on the the P1k, now this. Real lack of r&d on their part.

 

[CID]

Well, that SUCKS!!! 😥 Any chance you have a pic of the filter? How many miles on the filter? Is your intake system still stock?

My '20 was stolen when at the dealership for a new axle seal, the dealer stepped right up and offered to replace it with a new one but it took 10 weeks to get here. That was a loooooooooooooooooooooong 10 weeks.

 

[Dankathy]

Well, that SUCKS!!! 😥 Any chance you have a pic of the filter? How many miles on the filter? Is your intake system still stock?

My '20 was stolen when at the dealership for a new axle seal, the dealer stepped right up and offered to replace it with a new one but it took 10 weeks to get here. That was a loooooooooooooooooooooong 10 weeks.

No pics of the filter but it was full. About 1300 mi on the filter. Intake from the filter to the engine is stock, uni and Donaldson (bad sizing on my part got me to here) on the dirty side. Was very much hoping you would weight in here. I would appreciate your opinion on the difference (if any) of the ride quality between the 2019 and your current 2021 machine. I think we ride a lot alike. If i buy a new machine should i spend the money on a live valve if its that much better? Go with what you have, revalve? What you have is way better than what i got stock (2019) so its ok? Sell the stock shocks for whatever i can get and go to internal bypass with all of the adjustments(5000)? The fire breathing dragon that guards my check book said " i dont care i just want to go ride tomorrow" jim beam isn't the only reason my head is pounding tonight!

 

[906UP]

So you took it in for a valve inspection/adjustment and the dealer says the motor is junk? Was it running bad? Was there dirt in the TB? Just curious how it got to this point.

 

[McCarthy]

I dunno, my spidey senses are tingling... Needs a new top end but compression is good and it runs fine. I would get a second opinion 10000%

 

[Dankathy]

I dunno, my spidey senses are tingling... Needs a new top end but compression is good and it runs fine. I would get a second opinion 10000%

Plan to run it until it smokes or at least smells bad.

 

[Dankathy]

So you took it in for a valve inspection/adjustment and the dealer says the motor is junk? Was it running bad? Was there dirt in the TB? Just curious how it got to this point.

Runs good, lots of dirt on the clean side of the filter. No apparent path for that dirt other than through the filter. I question that these factory filters will restrict enough to pull the motor down- cat or donaldson would. This one didn't trip the filter minder.

 

[HUCK]

Bull sh-- ! Get it back , put a new filter in it . Change the filter or clean it every oil change and let me know how it's doing 5000 miles from now .

 

[906UP]

Bull sh-- ! Get it back , put a new filter in it . Change the filter or clean it every oil change and let me know how it's doing 5000 miles from now .

This ^^^^^

 

[Dankathy]

Bull sh-- ! Get it back , put a new filter in it . Change the filter or clean it every oil change and let me know how it's doing 5000 miles from now .

Want to buy it? 14250 today.

 

[CID]

No pics of the filter but it was full. About 1300 mi on the filter. Intake from the filter to the engine is stock, uni and Donaldson (bad sizing on my part got me to here) on the dirty side. Was very much hoping you would weight in here. I would appreciate your opinion on the difference (if any) of the ride quality between the 2019 and your current 2021 machine. I think we ride a lot alike. If i buy a new machine should i spend the money on a live valve if its that much better? Go with what you have, revalve? What you have is way better than what i got stock (2019) so its ok? Sell the stock shocks for whatever i can get and go to internal bypass with all of the adjustments(5000)? The fire breathing dragon that guards my check book said " i dont care i just want to go ride tomorrow" jim beam isn't the only reason my head is pounding tonight!

I'm dumbfounded that that much dirt got through the Uni?!?! Was it oiled? My Uni was filthy at 1066 (first cleaning) and a goopy/oily mess - but the stock air filter was still spotless at 1137 miles - all were with the Uni on its snorkel behind the passenger seat. (those pics are linked in my sig for the curious) The Donaldson (filter minder) would seem to be redundant since the Uni sits in plain sight? I'd be surprised if you ran your Uni as dirty as I did or past its ability to filter, it should have choked out the engine first.

To be clear - I am NOT pointing fingers like some will do, but I'm 'driven' to find solutions and this failure could happen to anyone using this concept.

Ride quality - If anything, the ride in the '21 is firmer than the red '20 I had but I'm sure that's because the '20 had 1500 miles on it and was finally breaking in.

My opinion on the Live Valve - I really, really want it to work and I think it will, someday. I'd have been tempted if the LV was available when I bought mine because I know any stock suspension can be improved. BUT, and a big but, I've read of too many issues with the LV for me to consider it at this time. The biggest problem is getting the shop techs trained in the very complex computer workings controlling the very complex mechanical systems involved. The SxS environment is a brutally harsh world, I keep my toys for years, you put big miles on yours - both of these situations are going to tax the mechanical components to their limits. I ride for fun and I don't want my buggy sitting in a dealership for weeks (months?) while their high school tech tries to figure out what pissy little computer glitch or delicate mechanical piece has failed.

So, no on the LV for me.

It's my (narrow minded) opinion that the best option for me at this time is having Weller Racing do the full shock treatment, including springs to match my load (2 spares and a bed extender). I'll be in Arizona shortly and can drop the Talon off there so I don't have to ship my shocks off (something I seem reluctant to do). If I was willing to step up to shipping, G-Force would probably be another shock service I'd look into, they have a great internet reputation too and external rebound and compression clickers AFAIK.

It goes without saying - keep us informed, inquiring minds need to know.

obtw: you got most of your money's worth out of this one IMHO - I'd trade it in.

 

[Dankathy]

I'm dumbfounded that that much dirt got through the Uni?!?! Was it oiled? My Uni was filthy at 1066 (first cleaning) and a goopy/oily mess - but the stock air filter was still spotless at 1137 miles - all were with the Uni on it's snorkel behind the passenger seat. (those pics are linked in my sig for the curious) The Donaldson would seem to be redundant since the Uni sits in plain sight? I'd be surprised if you ran your Uni as dirty as I did or past its ability to filter, it should have choked out the engine first.

To be clear - I am NOT pointing fingers like some will do, but I'm 'driven' to find solutions and this failure could happen to anyone using this concept.

Ride quality - If anything, the ride in the '21 is firmer than the red '20 I had but I'm sure that's because the '20 had 1500 miles on it and was finally breaking in.

My opinion on the Live Valve - I really, really want it to work and I think it will, someday. I'd have been tempted if the LV was available when I bought mine because I know any stock suspension can be improved. BUT, and a big but, I've read of too many issues with the LV for me to consider it at this time. The biggest problem is getting the shop techs trained in the very complex computer workings controlling the very complex mechanical systems involved. The SxS environment is a brutally harsh world, I keep my toys for years, you put big miles on yours - both of these situations are going to tax the mechanical components to their limits. I ride for fun and I don't want my buggy sitting in a dealerships for weeks (months?) while their high school tech tries to figure out what pissy little computer glitch or delicate mechanical piece has failed.

So, no on the LV for me.

It's my (narrow minded) opinion that the best option for me at this time is having Weller Racing do the full shock treatment, including springs to match my load (2 spares and a bed extender). I'll be in Arizona shortly and can drop the Talon off there so I don't have to ship my shocks off (something I seem reluctant to do). If I was willing to step up to shipping, G-Force would probably be another shock service I'd look into, they have a great internet reputation too and external rebound and compression clickers AFAIK.

It goes without saying - keep us informed, inquiring minds need to know.

obtw: you got most of your money's worth out of this one IMHO - I'd trade it in.

I appreciate your response. Our use and opinion are very much alike. Just to be clear on how i got to here, i ran about 3000 miles on the stock filters, replacing many in the process. When i was changing filters from when new i would consistently find a fine layer of dust on the clean side- didn't know what to do about it other than make certain that the install was perfect( in an ocd way!). At about 3000 miles, i went to the uni and a filter minder, cleaned it every 700-1000 miles and life was good- just messy. Fast forward to about 14000 miles i did a donaldson topspin precleaner. Good stuff and proven technology, but i had a hard time finding one the"right" size and went to big. I check the dirty side drain tube every few rides, and when i saw dirt i went back to the uni. That was about 14500 miles. At 15800 miles i took it in for a valve adjustment and the clean side had more than enough dirt in it. Right or not, i suspect that the factory filter micron rating is higher than desirable. Would like to hear from some of the guys who ride this fine desert dust who see the inside of theirs regularly. I think this is the result of a slow steady degradation, not a big one time gulp of dirt.

 

[Dankathy]

I appreciate your response. Our use and opinion are very much alike. Just to be clear on how i got to here, i ran about 3000 miles on the stock filters, replacing many in the process. When i was changing filters from when new i would consistently find a fine layer of dust on the clean side- didn't know what to do about it other than make certain that the install was perfect( in an ocd way!). At about 3000 miles, i went to the uni and a filter minder, cleaned it every 700-1000 miles and life was good- just messy. Fast forward to about 14000 miles i did a donaldson topspin precleaner. Good stuff and proven technology, but i had a hard time finding one the"right" size and went to big. I check the dirty side drain tube every few rides, and when i saw dirt i went back to the uni. That was about 14500 miles. At 15800 miles i took it in for a valve adjustment and the clean side had more than enough dirt in it. Right or not, i suspect that the factory filter micron rating is higher than desirable. Would like to hear from some of the guys who ride this fine desert dust who see the inside of theirs regularly. I think this is the result of a slow steady degradation, not a big one time gulp of dirt.

On the trade in, i would like to sell it outright as is, no secret here

 

[CID]

I've read that the stock Honda filter is very efficient. One possibility for enough dirt to be visible on the clean side would be a warped or defective air box or lid - that would lead me to heavily greasing the sealing surfaces and attendant gaskets, something I had previously thought was overkill. I could have easily fallen into that trap - 'I don't need to look, I know it's clean in there' - actually I have fallen in. I had such great luck with the '20, I had no reason to risk upsetting the known good seal. A big part of the snorkel idea is to keep me out of the somewhat complex stock air box - I've been known to FU simple mechanical processes, no matter how careful I try to be, I'm still human.

I'd ask the dealer if he thought the air filter had failed. Like the Uni, it should have choked off the engine before passing dirt but I guess a high vacuum (caused by a plugged filter) could pull the filter apart, something that should have been obvious?

Sorry this happened to you, best of luck in your next step, whichever direction you choose.

ETA: it's a sellers market, you might find a mechanical type willing to take a chance and $14,250 is way below market.

 

[Dankathy]

Hadn't thought about the housing, they showed me the orings and all looked as i would expect. The filterminder was not tripped and the filter did not look like it had come apart. I dont run full throttle ( high rpm/ air flow) a lot so maybe i'm not a good judge, but i don't believe it was being choked off

 

[PaulF]

When i was changing filters from when new i would consistently find a fine layer of dust on the clean side

This is absolutely NOT normal. My first couple filters were jam packed before I got my S&B and never did my clean side ever have even the slightest film. 3000 miles later, my clean side has never had to be cleaned and looks brand new.

You have a leak on the clean side. There have been a few with bad gaskets but there have also been several with improperly fitted and/or loose tubes on the throttle body.

When I heard that at first I called BS, how can dirt travel backwards??? Then it was explained that the engine pulses actually cause air to move back an forth between the intake tubes (as one intake is closed, the other is open and momentarily decreases pressure and draws air up the opposite tube). If there is a leak anywhere in the tube, that turbulence will cause any sucked in dust to travel from one tube, up into the clean side and back down the other and put a light film on everything. The more the filter gets coated with dirt and begins to get restricted, the more dust will get sucked in on the clean side.

A leak on the clean side may also explain why the filter minder may not have worked properly.

If the compression is still good and it isn't using any oil, you might be OK. You are in Utah so bring it to my shop and we can scope the cylinders with my camera through the spark plug holes.

In any case, I'll give you 12K cash!!!

 

[1HasBeen]

Just to clarify, was the dirt evident immediately after the filter, or further downstream? There was a youtuber whose engine got dusted, but it turned out there was an intake boot connection that was allowing dirt entry due to an assembly error at the plant.

 

[CID]

Hadn't thought about the housing, they showed me the orings and all looked as i would expect. The filterminder was not tripped and the filter did not look like it had come apart. I dont run full throttle ( high rpm/ air flow) a lot so maybe i'm not a good judge, but i don't believe it was being choked off

I'm a light throttle driver myself, a filter would have to be really plugged up for me to notice a performance drop off. A guy can carry good speed without bouncing off the rev limiter.

 

[PaulF]

In any case, I'll give you 12K cash!!!

I just realized you have over 15,000 miles on your machine so I retract this offer.

I'll go $8,000 cash!